Unvaxxed members - a question?

Raddragn said:
One of the most vociferous complaints against the Vaccines is the "rush" to get it out to the public. Did it ever occur to any of the critics that the "rush" may have been because of the morbility and mortality rate of those who did get Covid and the rapid spread of it.. I wonder how many would have died if they have taken 5 years to produce it and bring it out to the public. The "rush" was more likely due to the horrifying morbility and mortality than corporate greed (not that that doesn't exist). I wonder how much criticism would have been leveled at them if they have been slower producing the vaccine?
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The most vociferous complaint was "Why aren't we offering a traditional anti-viral vaccine while we wait for trials and tests of the mRna vaccine to be fully and successfully completed?"
 

Lilac said:
My kids chose not to take the vax & I'm glad they did. I worry about what could happen to them in the future or to any children they may have.
I think of the flormideride babies.
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Do you mean thalidomide babies? Their problems were caused by a pill, not a shot. Something doctors were prescribing to pregnant mothers to treat morning sickness. It was not passed by the FDA here in the U.S. I think they're very careful.

I'm fully vaxxed and I was pestering the local health department to sign up my family for the shots just as soon as they were available. I had a bad case of Covid before the shots and had to be hospitalized and my friends daughter died of it at about the same time.

I'm grateful to our government for "rushing it through." It didn't mean they cut any corners, but that they put other research aside for a time. That's how the polio vaccine was developed when Roosevelt "rushed through" a vaccine.

Back in the 1930's this country got control of tuberculosis by what would seem far more draconian measures than wearing masks. People were tested by x-rays and sent to sanitariums, sometimes against their will. When it was a man with TB he was often the sole provider for his family in a time before welfare, but he still had to quit his job and go. Everyone seemed to think it was worth it to save millions of lives.

I expect to get a Covid shot every year from now on, along with my flu shot and pneumonia when needed.

I had a set of shingles shots this year. I hope all of you, who are able to, gets that. It's horribly painful and long lasting.
 
I hope this whole discussion just eventually goes away ........ but feel it will stay with us

I look around us and see stickers that seemed so important to mark out 6 ft ( public Buildings) and now with everything lifted............ they are left to slowly peel away or be faded on the floors ( slowly disappearing with each swipe of a floor cleaner ) .......
no one investing in the time to scrape these off the floor

If people want to get shots or those who do not want them ...... just agree to disagree.......
that was the whole point .... choice to do what the person wanted.
 

Della said:
I'm grateful to our government for "rushing it through." It didn't mean they cut any corners, but that they put other research aside for a time. That's how the polio vaccine was developed when Roosevelt "rushed through" a vaccine.

Back in the 1930's this country got control of tuberculosis by what would seem far more draconian measures than wearing masks. People were tested by x-rays and sent to sanitariums, sometimes against their will. When it was a man with TB he was often the sole provider for his family in a time before welfare, but he still had to quit his job and go. Everyone seemed to think it was worth it to save millions of lives.

I expect to get a Covid shot every year from now on, along with my flu shot and pneumonia when needed.

I had a set of shingles shots this year. I hope all of you, who are able to, gets that. It's horribly painful and long lasting.
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They did cut corners, though. Remember when the FDA was given a court order early last year (I think) to release all documents regarding Pfizer's covid mRna vaccine trials, and they finally agreed to release them but they said they'd do it over a 7 year period? And the first ones they released had redactions all over them, remember? So they were ordered to remove the redactions, and in the unredacted documents it was clear Pfizer cut many corners. Moreover, the trials were really sloppy; poor record-keeping, reported serious side effects were ignored, they were generally disorganized and actually violated certain protocol, including revealing the identification of participants and other information that's not supposed to be accessible in blind studies. (you can find info abt this online)

As for the vaccine rushed through during Roosevelt's presidency, he called for a traditional vaccine, a tried and very successful method which uses a dead or weakened virus or part of a dead or weakened virus and introduces it into people's bodies so their bodies can make anti-bodies against that particular virus. The thing that was new at the time is that that particular virus hadn't yet been tested. But researchers and experts were reasonably certain at the time that all viruses and everybody's immune systems behave in the same way, or at least very similarly. And they were right.
 
Jeni said:
I hope this whole discussion just eventually goes away ........ but feel it will stay with us

...

If people want to get shots or those who do not want them ...... just agree to disagree.......
that was the whole point .... choice to do what the person wanted.
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I hope the discussion doesn't go away because of the attempts over a couple of years to suppress discussion regarding concerns about the vaccine from even medical doctors and researchers who had reservations. That suppression has now mostly lifted but the tendency to 'other' and stigmatize people who choose not to vaccinate remains.

Also, for many people, 'choice' involved a loss of employment, even those who in healthcare infected early who were protected by natural immunity (that is now shown to be superior to vaccine mediated immunity). You would've thought the alphabet agency government scientists during suppression of discussion stage completely forgot there was ever such a thing as natural immunity or that we suddenly had a new virus that unlike other viruses, mysteriously did not confer natural immunity.
 
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AnnieA said:
The most current literature review of mRNA cancer therapeutics at the time of the release of Covid vaccines stated mRNA technology was at least five years away from approval for oncology in part due to promotion of autoimmunity. Since I already have several autoimmune disorders, the cancer studies were a big piece of my decision to forgo the vaccine.
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Technology takes time, but the current progress of MRNA treatment of cancer offers a great deal of hope …

”Yale researchers say customized cancer vaccine shows promise
Out of the clinical data recorded so far, the combination of Keytruda and a customized mRNA vaccine reduced the risk of reoccurrence in patients by 44%.”
https://www.fox61.com/article/news/...mise/520-f1bdfaaa-d700-409d-83df-e8c69a44d65f
 
Murrmurr said:
They did cut corners, though. Remember when the FDA was given a court order early last year (I think) to release all documents regarding Pfizer's covid mRna vaccine trials, and they finally agreed to release them but they said they'd do it over a 7 year period? And the first ones they released had redactions all over them, remember? So they were ordered to remove the redactions, and in the unredacted documents it was clear Pfizer cut many corners. Moreover, the trials were really sloppy; poor record-keeping, reported serious side effects were ignored, they were generally disorganized and actually violated certain protocol, including revealing the identification of participants and other information that's not supposed to be accessible in blind studies. (you can find info abt this online)

As for the vaccine rushed through during Roosevelt's presidency, he called for a traditional vaccine, a tried and very successful method which uses a dead or weakened virus or part of a dead or weakened virus and introduces it into people's bodies so their bodies can make anti-bodies against that particular virus. The thing that was new at the time is that that particular virus hadn't yet been tested. But researchers and experts were reasonably certain at the time that all viruses and everybody's immune systems behave in the same way, or at least very similarly. And they were right.
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Wow I didn't know all that! I think I must have quit paying attention to Covid news after a while.
 
AnnieA said:
I hope the discussion doesn't go away because of the attempts over a couple of years to suppress discussion regarding concerns about the vaccine from even medical doctors and researchers who had reservations. That suppression has now mostly lifted but the tendency to 'other' and stigmatize people who choose not to vaccinate remains.

Also, for many people, 'choice' involved a loss of employment, even those who in healthcare infected early who were protected by natural immunity (that is now shown to be superior to vaccine mediated immunity). You would've thought the alphabet agency government scientists during suppression of discussion stage completely forgot there was ever such a thing as natural immunity or that we suddenly had a new virus that unlike other viruses, mysteriously did not confer natural immunity.
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All good points.............think i could have been clearer real discussion and accepting facts yes..... continue pointing fingers about who did or who did not NO
i wanted it to fade away i MEANT the squabbles over who did and who did not and refusal to accept in the war of choice free choice won...
many who lost jobs got them back and some with back pay .......expensive lesson that falls in higher cost to taxpayers and consumers......

many employers who held on too long to mandate........... lost people and could not attract many simply because the shot....
the shot did not stop spread and selling point of it will be milder is a negative that they cannot prove.....but some will argue to the end of time over it
some are deeply entrenched in their choice and just furthering division
they tried something did not work as expected ......................hope many learn the lesson and move on instead of keep poking at a sore and wondering why it will not heal.
 
Della said:
Do you mean thalidomide babies? Their problems were caused by a pill, not a shot. Something doctors were prescribing to pregnant mothers to treat morning sickness. It was not passed by the FDA here in the U.S. I think they're very careful.

I'm fully vaxxed and I was pestering the local health department to sign up my family for the shots just as soon as they were available. I had a bad case of Covid before the shots and had to be hospitalized and my friends daughter died of it at about the same time.

I'm grateful to our government for "rushing it through." It didn't mean they cut any corners, but that they put other research aside for a time. That's how the polio vaccine was developed when Roosevelt "rushed through" a vaccine.

Back in the 1930's this country got control of tuberculosis by what would seem far more draconian measures than wearing masks. People were tested by x-rays and sent to sanitariums, sometimes against their will. When it was a man with TB he was often the sole provider for his family in a time before welfare, but he still had to quit his job and go. Everyone seemed to think it was worth it to save millions of lives.

I expect to get a Covid shot every year from now on, along with my flu shot and pneumonia when needed.

I had a set of shingles shots this year. I hope all of you, who are able to, gets that. It's horribly painful and long lasting.
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I thought the "March of Dimes", started by Roosevelt and supported by schoolchildren and everyone else, is what funded the polio vaccine and it WASN'T rushed! It took twenty or more years if I remember correctly. :unsure:
 
Murrmurr said:
They did cut corners, though. Remember when the FDA was given a court order early last year (I think) to release all documents regarding Pfizer's covid mRna vaccine trials, and they finally agreed to release them but they said they'd do it over a 7 year period? And the first ones they released had redactions all over them, remember? So they were ordered to remove the redactions, and in the unredacted documents it was clear Pfizer cut many corners. Moreover, the trials were really sloppy; poor record-keeping, reported serious side effects were ignored, they were generally disorganized and actually violated certain protocol, including revealing the identification of participants and other information that's not supposed to be accessible in blind studies. (you can find info abt this online)

As for the vaccine rushed through during Roosevelt's presidency, he called for a traditional vaccine, a tried and very successful method which uses a dead or weakened virus or part of a dead or weakened virus and introduces it into people's bodies so their bodies can make anti-bodies against that particular virus. The thing that was new at the time is that that particular virus hadn't yet been tested. But researchers and experts were reasonably certain at the time that all viruses and everybody's immune systems behave in the same way, or at least very similarly. And they were right.
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If you are talking about TB, it is caused by a bacterium, not a virus. As a child, I was immunised against TB when my grandfather became infectious. The scab on my arm lasted for about 8 months. That was normal for that vaccine but worth it for not catching TB.

Apparently Pop had had the disease as a young man but recovered without treatment - strong immune system, no doubt, but the pathogen lay dormant in the scars on the lung and reactivated when, as an old man, his immune system became much weaker.

People who rely on natural immunity need to be aware that immunity and disease do not necessarily interact in clean cut ways. There can be unforeseen and lasting after effects.
 
Raddragn said:
https://www.factcheck.org/2022/03/s...-covid-19-vaccine-safety-monitoring-document/
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The issue isn't the list of side effects being monitored but that there was no follow-up research. Thoroughly researching adverse events is why medical trials often take 5 to 10 years, and sometimes more. In fact, Pfizer was already aware of many possible adverse events for over a decade; they'd been researching mRna since the mid-2000s. The FDA didn't approved mRna vaccines back then because Pfizer hadn't found a way to close the risk to benefit gap. And the documents they're gradually releasing have yet to show where and how they did, if they did. Pfizer isn't even claiming that they closed the risk to benefit gap, they just keep saying "safe and effective."

So doctors, experts, and other researchers are asking "Well, where's the data that shows that?" There is no data that shows that. Not yet, anyway. It's suspect that they didn't release that data first.

"This many people died of covid-19, and this many didn't" is not data. In fact, that's conjecture. And there's no way anyone can know how many lives could have been saved with a traditional vaccine. That's what medical scientists are taking issue with. A traditional vaccine could have been "rolled out" even quicker than the mRna vaccine, possibly saving more lives. Possibly even stopping the infection rate.
 
chic said:
I thought the "March of Dimes", started by Roosevelt and supported by schoolchildren and everyone else, is what funded the polio vaccine and it WASN'T rushed! It took twenty or more years if I remember correctly. :unsure:
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Well "The March of Dimes," was originally named the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis and founded by an acting president, so it seems like "government" to me even if school children do donate to it, and considering how many diseases we had then that still have no cure today, seventeen years seems fast to me.

I guess it's all in how you look at it. To me, cures for diseases, or vaccines to prevent them, seem like a good thing. To others it's not.
 
Della said:
I guess it's all in how you look at it. To me, cures for diseases, or vaccines to prevent them, seem like a good thing. To others it's not.
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That's not true, Della. I mean, it might seem like it, but I'm sure you know everyone wants cures and vaccines and ways of preventing diseases. I suppose scientists will always argue over the best and safest ways to accomplish that.
 
Warrigal said:
If you are talking about TB, it is caused by a bacterium, not a virus. As a child, I was immunised against TB when my grandfather became infectious. The scab on my arm lasted for about 8 months. That was normal for that vaccine but worth it for not catching TB.

Apparently Pop had had the disease as a young man but recovered without treatment - strong immune system, no doubt, but the pathogen lay dormant in the scars on the lung and reactivated when, as an old man, his immune system became much weaker.

People who rely on natural immunity need to be aware that immunity and disease do not necessarily interact in clean cut ways. There can be unforeseen and lasting after effects.
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I think Della might have been talking about polio.

As far as we know (by "we" I mean scientists) interactions between a healthy immune system and pathogens are clear-cut. That's why researchers got all excited when the new coronavirus behaved unpredictably in that it found ways to escape immunity so quickly. I mean, it is a predictable behavior, it just wasn't expected to happen so quickly.
 
Della said:
Wow I didn't know all that! I think I must have quit paying attention to Covid news after a while.
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Maybe you didn’t know because not all the ranting against vaccines is true, or is likely an exaggeration. My wife and I were first in line for Pfizer and Moderna, and all their boosters, and have never regretted it. Got the latest booster a couple of weeks ago. Only I’ll effect, a slightly sore arm. MRNA vaccines will prove to be one of the greatest boons to mankind in the history of medicine. Thanks to Operation Warp Speed, MRNA gave us an effective Covid vaccine far faster than old fashioned methods and will likely provide an unprecedented cancer vaccine and treatment, as well as a rapid response to future epidemics.
 
If it weren't so sad, it would be funny that so many deliberate misinterpretations have been and still are being heaped on to the already voluminous misinformation against Covid vaccinations being disseminated - particularly on social media. The amount of research necessary to dig up views that support these theories must be really time consuming. Time that unfortunately might be more profitably and usefully spent. Oh well.
I do have to wonder, though, how many of these supposedly "immune" anti- vaxxers who claim to have had no Covid or have had "mild" cases, but have, in actuality, become a type of Covid "Typhoid Mary". I may be wrong, but I don't believe many, if any, are being tested
 
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Raddragn said:
Covid "Typhoid Mary".
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A Covid "Typhoid Mary" would be an unhygienic cook who transferred fecal matter containing Covid to food; that was how Mary spread the Typhoid bacteria.

There are some viruses that remain latent in the body (with intermittent, symptomatic 'flares' that are infectious) such as those in the herpes family, but that's not a characteristic of the coronavirus taxonomic group. The rare exception is that coronavirus may be part of the gut microbiome after infection in a subset of those with "Long Covid", in which case the method of transmission would be a fecal aerosol since the principle mode of transmission of the coronavirus taxonomic group is respiratory. Long Covid occurs in both vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. If you're concerned about fecal aerosol such as from a flushing toilet, you can easily prevent that by spraying a disinfectant as you flush. I've carried a pocked sized disinfectant and sprayed when flushing for years since I work in heathcare and have taught sanitation safety courses; it's just prudent always, but especially during viral gastrointestional outbreaks such as norovirus. If you're concerned about the very low possibility of fomite transmission, wash your hands or use hand sanitizer.

Other than the above, people with acute asymptomatic or very mild infections are capable of transmitting the disease and, again, those cases occur in both vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.
 
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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32607242/​

Abstract​


Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection was declared a pandemic on 11 March 2020. We have since seen its fast spread worldwide. A likely contributing factor was the lack of symptoms of some of the carriers, making them unaware of their risk of spreading to other more vulnerable individuals. The other important finding has been the reported cases of infectivity despite lack of symptoms. We describe the SARS-CoV-2 pneumonia patterns in asymptomatic individuals. The common computed tomography (CT) thorax patterns found are peripheral ground-glass opacification (GGO) with upper or lower lobe predominance. We believe screening for 2019-novel coronavirus (COVID-19) in high-risk individuals may help identify the patients needing longer follow-up.

https://news.fiu.edu/2020/is-histor...rned-from-typhoid-mary-in-the-age-of-covid-19
 
AnnieA said:
@ElCastor We get that you're pro vaxx. Doesn't take but a couple of derailed posts (see thread title and OP) to figure that out. ;)

It sounds like you have a lot of material to start a pro mRNA thread. I would be happy to participate in that instead of continually debating and derailing @chic 's thread which is very clearly directed at people who chose not to vaccinate.
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I do what I do and say what I say because I am honestly convinced that vaccines save lives. Frightening people away from vaccination can, I believe, cost lives. If that doesn‘t work for you, so be it.
 

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