What Do Real Muslims Believe?

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Warrigal said:
Of course we have all heard of 9/11.
Have you looked further back in time to the Blitz and the carpet bombing of Germany?

What do they have in common? Both were more about waging war than anything that is integral to any religion.

9/11 was an attack on the USA, not on christianity. It was political and an example of modern guerilla warfare. A dozen or so men armed with box cutters succeeded in killing thousands.

The strategy was to attack the major symbols of western power - Twin Towers, financial power - Pentagon, military might - Washington, political power. It was terrorism, pure and simple and it immediately drove millions crazy. It also put muslims everywhere in danger of retaliation. This was not an act supported by the majority of muslims in the world but it was cheered by those people who considered US and her allies to be their enemy.
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Correctly stated Warrigal ! My husband was one who was attacked after 9/11 because some idiot assumed he was an Arab. Due to my husband's complexion, some people didn't know if he was a tanned white man, Hispanic or Arab. My husband went to deliver an order to one of his customers. He always wore his scarf around his neck (made like the one some Muslims men wear on their heads). A man said "damned Arab" and attacked him with a knife. Blessedly my husband was able to keep him off, tell him who and what he was and avoid harm.
 

JimBob1952 said:
Not quite the right analogy. Fundamentalist Islam has taken over whole nations and set them against the West. Look at Iran, Iraq under Saddam, Libya under Qaddafi. Cults like the ones you mentioned are outliers. Afghanistan pre-9-11 provided safe haven to terrorists as a matter of national policy. The KKK is a decrepit organization with about 3000 members nationwide, and the last lynching in the US was forty years ago.

I don't fully agree with Senior Chef but it's foolish to ignore the problems created by fundamentalist Islam, or to draw bogus parallels with criminal acts performed by "Christians."
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The KKK is alive and well and not that long ago was trying to recruit people in Wildwood N.J. We may not have heard about lynchings but White Supremacists are carrying out other heinous crimes whether individually or mass murders. I understand your points and don't disagree with them. The KKK are insidious in that they (White Supremacists) have infiltrated levels of government, police forces and even schools. Some are in effect, hiding in plain sight, spewing their hate and (in the school system), no matter how subtle, negatively influencing the minds of children of color. Consider that U.S. intelligence has named White Supremacists as one of the biggest threats America faces right now.
 
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Shero said:
My thinking cap is tightly on and this is what I say!!

I had no real intention of returning to this thread, but out of politeness this is what I have to say. I am not a religious person. I believe in God, but I do not pray to God 5 times a day. I pray to God with every breath I take. I was hoping for some diplomatique mediation . Finally, what I would like to say is:

First: Jesus never wrote a word during his lifetime. Others came long after him and wrote what they thought he said, did, etc.

Second: Muhammad, could not read and write himself. He depended on scribes to write for him and a lot of opinions formed over a long time., so who knows what is true or not.

Finally, in my opinion it is all hearsay and I do believe both you and Lara are correct according to your teachings, as I said before!

I do not wish to offend anyone, so I am finished here.

La fin!!
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I believe your statements about Jesus and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are correct. You would not be the first and I'm sure, not the last to deem it all hearsay. I am not offended but do wish to be held to the same expectations as anyone else. I read what seemed to be a double standard and addressed it. No harm...no foul. :)
 
May I suggest that before anyone else posts a single word on this thread, they watch the excellent film "Not without my daughter". It can be rented on Amazon PRIME. It is a true story of an American woman's personal experience with Islam.
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helenbacque said:
Whenever I see pictures such as this, I have to ask, "What are Muslim men so afraid of?"
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Speaking as a man, I have some insight on what motivates SOME men. In my opinion, Muslim men are afraid of the power that women have. There are many kinds of power: physical power, political power, financial power and sexual power.
When a woman gets all dressed up, complete with make-up and makes herself beautiful, she has the power to pick and choose which man, if any, she will date, and which she will turn down. That is precisely what Muslim men are afraid of. In many, perhaps most, Islamic countries it is the man who has all the power. He looks upon her as PROPERTY.
Thus when Islam forces a woman to wear the full burka, Islam is denying the woman her natural sexual power.
 
senior chef said:
Try selling that nonsense to the Taliban.

Try selling that nonsense to the Saudis , where, until quite recently, women could not even get a drivers license.

Try selling that nonsense to the Muslim women who are not allowed to even go shopping for groceries without her husband or one of his close relatives.

Try selling that nonsense to Muslim women who are forced to wear truly bizarre clothing which covers every square inch of their bodies … including their faces.

Try selling that nonsense to any Muslim woman who has been beaten by Muslim men in the streets.

Try selling that nonsense to the spirits of women who have been stoned to death.

Try selling that nonsense to the women and girls of Afghanistan where, until the Americans came, it was illegal to teach any female to read and write.

Good heavens , woman, get a grip.
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Why don't you try telling the thousands of women who have been sexually abused by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the women and girls who are trafficked and sold into sex slavery by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the ghosts of the women who have been brutally slain by their own husbands or partners (who were not Muslim men)? These are the 2019 stats on sex trafficking in the U.S.
  • "Since 2007, the National Human Trafficking Hotline has gotten reports of 22,191 sex trafficking cases in the US.
  • Since 2016, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has estimated that one in six endangered runaways were likely to be sex trafficking victims". BTW..they just busted a huge sex trafficking ring in Newark, N.J. this year.
  • "Here is the partial statistic of how many women died in the U.S. at the hands of their partners according to an article published by The Atlantic.
  • The CDC analyzed the murders of women in 18 states from 2003 to 2014, finding a total of 10,018 deaths. Of those, 55 percent were intimate partner violence-related, meaning they occurred at the hands of a former or current partner or the partner’s family or friends. In 93 percent of those cases, the culprit was a current or former romantic partner. The report also bucks the strangers-in-dark-alleys narrative common to televised crime dramas:"
  • Psychology Today made the following connection in an article about domestic violence leading to murder on the rise:
  • "The mainstreaming of white supremacy and domestic violence are closely connected. A recent New York Times article, “A Common Trait Among Mass Killers: Hatred Toward Women,”
  • From the Violence Policy Center more recent state:
  • • "Nationwide, 1,946 females were murdered by males in single victim/single offender incidents in 2018, at a rate of 1.28 per 100,000. Of the 1,946 female homicide victims, 1,215 were white, 605 were Black, 56 were Asian or Pacific Islander, 30 were American Indian or Alaskan Native, and in 40 cases the race of the victim was not identified."
  • My point continues to be that women all over the world and even right here in the good ole U.S. of A. are being brutalized, trafficked, used as sex slaves and subjected to other heinous acts. I haven't even covered the domestic abuse cases that did not end in murder or the prostitutes working for their pimps. FYI...I don't know the deal with these damned bullets but I'm not able to delete them.
  • @JimBob1952
 
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OneEyedDiva said:
Brilliantly written my friend!! I couldn't have "said" it better myself! Your points are right on. I also noticed the hypocrisy in some of the replies. And of course (without naming names...but we know who), some of the comments are just ridiculous. But we have a saying....some people are "born not to know". I have been so busy that I'm still working my way through this thread but I did want to respond to you and thank you and others who get it...for your support.
@Pecos @Shalimar @Warrigal @JimBob1952
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It is always better to confront than to insinuate Diva.

It is also noble to"support" your friends BUT to sweep facts aside is not helpful. The way to really support a friend and I do this myself. is to say it as it is. while still loving them, otherwise no one learns.

It will at this point in time to name who you refer to as to "hypocricy". After all it seems everything is sur la table, one more dish will only add to the essence of this thread.
 
OneEyedDiva said:
I believe your statements about Jesus and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are correct. You would not be the first and I'm sure, not the last to deem it all hearsay. I am not offended but do wish to be held to the same expectations as anyone else. I read what seemed to be a double standard and addressed it. No harm...no foul. :)
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Here again Diva: you refer to "double standards" - please clearly say what you mean and who is showing those double standards. As I said before, confront rather than insinuate. It makes life much easier.
I do not understand the statement "no harm, no foul" please explain?
 
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OneEyedDiva said:
Why don't you try telling the thousands of women who have been sexually abused by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the women and girls who are trafficked and sold into sex slavery by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the ghosts of the women who have been brutally slain by their own husbands or partners (who were not Muslim men)? These are the 2019 stats on sex trafficking in the U.S.
  • "Since 2007, the National Human Trafficking Hotline has gotten reports of 22,191 sex trafficking cases in the US.
  • Since 2016, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has estimated that one in six endangered runaways were likely to be sex trafficking victims". BTW..they just busted a huge sex trafficking ring in Newark, N.J. this year.
  • "Here's how many women died in the U.S. at the hands of their partners according to an article published by The Atlantic.
  • The CDC analyzed the murders of women in 18 states from 2003 to 2014, finding a total of 10,018 deaths. Of those, 55 percent were intimate partner violence-related, meaning they occurred at the hands of a former or current partner or the partner’s family or friends. In 93 percent of those cases, the culprit was a current or former romantic partner. The report also bucks the strangers-in-dark-alleys narrative common to televised crime dramas:"
  • Psychology Today made the following connection in an article about domestic violence leading to murder on the rise:
  • "The mainstreaming of white supremacy and domestic violence are closely connected. A recent New York Times article, “A Common Trait Among Mass Killers: Hatred Toward Women,”
  • From the Violence Policy Center more recent state:
  • • "Nationwide, 1,946 females were murdered by males in single victim/single offender incidents in 2018, at a rate of 1.28 per 100,000. Of the 1,946 female homicide victims, 1,215 were white, 605 were Black, 56 were Asian or Pacific Islander, 30 were American Indian or Alaskan Native, and in 40 cases the race of the victim was not identified."
  • My point continues to be that women all over the world and even right here in the good ole U.S. of A. are being brutalized, trafficked, used as sex slaves and subjected to other heinous acts. I haven't even covered the prostitutes working for their pimps. FYI...I don't know the deal with these damned bullets but I'm not able to delete them.
  • @JimBob1952
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There is no question that the above links are true.
However, the only RELIGION that supports, indeed actively encourages, complete domination of women, is Islam.
 
senior chef said:
Speaking as a man, I have some insight on what motivates SOME men. In my opinion, Muslim men are afraid of the power that women have. There are many kinds of power: physical power, political power, financial power and sexual power.
When a woman gets all dressed up, complete with make-up and makes herself beautiful, she has the power to pick and choose which man, if any, she will date, and which she will turn down. That is precisely what Muslim men are afraid of. In many, perhaps most, Islamic countries it is the man who has all the power. He looks upon her as PROPERTY.
Thus when Islam forces a woman to wear the full burka, Islam is denying the woman her natural sexual power.
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I think there is a lot of truth in what you are saying, and it applies to men in many places and religions. Even here in the US in some cases, and not so long ago in many.

When I was in Saudi we used to drive across the causeway to Bahrain. Saudi women were required to wear the burqa and could not leave the country without their husband or a male relative. Halfway to Bahrain there is a manmade island with customs and immigration things. The Saudis have a building all women are required to go through. It was interesting going in the Saudi side there was a line of women all in burqas, coming out the other side, into Bahrain, many of the women were in tight reveling clothing, tight pants, etc. It appeared they had a changing room on the Bahraini side. Then I noticed some of the women in burqas on the Saudi side were in high heels, guess those are ok.

As a note both Bahrain and Saudi are Muslim countries.
 
OneEyedDiva said:
Why don't you try telling the thousands of women who have been sexually abused by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the women and girls who are trafficked and sold into sex slavery by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the ghosts of the women who have been brutally slain by their own husbands or partners (who were not Muslim men)? These are the 2019 stats on sex trafficking in the U.S.
  • "Since 2007, the National Human Trafficking Hotline has gotten reports of 22,191 sex trafficking cases in the US.
  • Since 2016, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has estimated that one in six endangered runaways were likely to be sex trafficking victims". BTW..they just busted a huge sex trafficking ring in Newark, N.J. this year.
  • "Here's how many women died in the U.S. at the hands of their partners according to an article published by The Atlantic.
  • The CDC analyzed the murders of women in 18 states from 2003 to 2014, finding a total of 10,018 deaths. Of those, 55 percent were intimate partner violence-related, meaning they occurred at the hands of a former or current partner or the partner’s family or friends. In 93 percent of those cases, the culprit was a current or former romantic partner. The report also bucks the strangers-in-dark-alleys narrative common to televised crime dramas:"
  • Psychology Today made the following connection in an article about domestic violence leading to murder on the rise:
  • "The mainstreaming of white supremacy and domestic violence are closely connected. A recent New York Times article, “A Common Trait Among Mass Killers: Hatred Toward Women,”
  • From the Violence Policy Center more recent state:
  • • "Nationwide, 1,946 females were murdered by males in single victim/single offender incidents in 2018, at a rate of 1.28 per 100,000. Of the 1,946 female homicide victims, 1,215 were white, 605 were Black, 56 were Asian or Pacific Islander, 30 were American Indian or Alaskan Native, and in 40 cases the race of the victim was not identified."
  • My point continues to be that women all over the world and even right here in the good ole U.S. of A. are being brutalized, trafficked, used as sex slaves and subjected to other heinous acts. I haven't even covered the prostitutes working for their pimps. FYI...I don't know the deal with these damned bullets but I'm not able to delete them.
  • @JimBob1952
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One HUGE thing you are forgetting. In ALL Christian countries, there are laws that were designed to protect women. Are those laws perfect ? Do they fail sometimes ? Yes, of course. Just like there are laws against murder, robbery etc. They do not work 100 % of the time.

However, if a woman has the courage to report abuses to the police, the system generally works to protect her. Example: it is quite common for an abused woman to get a judge to mandate that the abuser keep a distance of 100 feet from that woman. If he violates that judges order, he is re-arrested and charged with another crime.

Compare the laws in Christian countries against that of Muslim countries.
https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/islam-and-womens-rights/
 
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OneEyedDiva said:
Correctly stated Warrigal ! My husband was one who was attacked after 9/11 because some idiot assumed he was an Arab. Due to my husband's complexion, some people didn't know if he was a tanned white man, Hispanic or Arab. My husband went to deliver an order to one of his customers. He always wore his scarf around his neck (made like the one some Muslims men wear on their heads). A man said "damned Arab" and attacked him with a knife. Blessedly my husband was able to keep him off, tell him who and what he was and avoid harm.
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In Sydney it was Hijabi women who bore the brunt of the anger, especially after the Bali bombings. To our credit many Australians started a movement called "I will ride with you" to support muslim women on public transport. I seldom travelled on public transport so I made it my policy to always smile at women wearing the hijab at the shopping centres. I also initiated conversations by admiring their children and babies. The smiles I received in return were pure gold.

The prejudice lasted for a long time and when a muslim organisation wanted to build a mosque near me there was the usual objections, supposedly on the grounds of insufficient parking spaces but it was really NIMBYism against muslims. I joined a FB group in support of the mosque because my thinking was freedom of religion must apply to all faiths. If muslims cannot worship in peace then my freedom is also under threat. My support was very encouraging but the path ahead was strewn with pitfalls. Plans for the mosque were changed to make it a community centre with space for worship and underground parking was included. Then the local council, under pressure from the anti mosque group, changed the rules. The new rules would mean that if today my congregation wanted to build the church we now enjoy we would not be able to. This is injustice fuelled by prejudice so I offered to attend the council meeting to support a couple of young muslim women speaking up against the proposed changes. They were grateful for my support even though the changes were passed.

Somehow, in the following years, progress has been made. That worship centre and several other small mosques have been established and guess what? No-one turns a hair because there have been no problems, just as there have been no problems with the large Sikh gurdwara that is also not too far from me. I have visited it a couple of times by invitation and the people are all, IMO, excellent citizens of my country.

This year during Ramadan I was able to attend an iftar dinner where the hosts provided the most amazing hospitality to a number of non muslim guests. Again, an absolutely delightful and productive encounter. The conversation was very open and enlightening. Our hosts had a Turkish background and they were not complimentary to President Erdogan.

We need to remember just as Christianity is not monolithic, neither is Islam.
 
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OneEyedDiva said:
Why don't you try telling the thousands of women who have been sexually abused by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the women and girls who are trafficked and sold into sex slavery by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the ghosts of the women who have been brutally slain by their own husbands or partners (who were not Muslim men)? These are the 2019 stats on sex trafficking in the U.S.
  • "Since 2007, the National Human Trafficking Hotline has gotten reports of 22,191 sex trafficking cases in the US.
  • Since 2016, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has estimated that one in six endangered runaways were likely to be sex trafficking victims". BTW..they just busted a huge sex trafficking ring in Newark, N.J. this year.
  • "Here's how many women died in the U.S. at the hands of their partners according to an article published by The Atlantic.
  • The CDC analyzed the murders of women in 18 states from 2003 to 2014, finding a total of 10,018 deaths. Of those, 55 percent were intimate partner violence-related, meaning they occurred at the hands of a former or current partner or the partner’s family or friends. In 93 percent of those cases, the culprit was a current or former romantic partner. The report also bucks the strangers-in-dark-alleys narrative common to televised crime dramas:"
  • Psychology Today made the following connection in an article about domestic violence leading to murder on the rise:
  • "The mainstreaming of white supremacy and domestic violence are closely connected. A recent New York Times article, “A Common Trait Among Mass Killers: Hatred Toward Women,”
  • From the Violence Policy Center more recent state:
  • • "Nationwide, 1,946 females were murdered by males in single victim/single offender incidents in 2018, at a rate of 1.28 per 100,000. Of the 1,946 female homicide victims, 1,215 were white, 605 were Black, 56 were Asian or Pacific Islander, 30 were American Indian or Alaskan Native, and in 40 cases the race of the victim was not identified."
  • My point continues to be that women all over the world and even right here in the good ole U.S. of A. are being brutalized, trafficked, used as sex slaves and subjected to other heinous acts. I haven't even covered the prostitutes working for their pimps. FYI...I don't know the deal with these damned bullets but I'm not able to delete them.
  • @JimBob1952
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I think @senior chef is what they call a troll. After all, a person who cannot potty train a puppy, and refuses to listen to the advice of people about how to raise a puppy, let’s a puppy get sick, can not possibly see any point of view besides his own.
 
senior chef said:
One HUGE thing you are forgetting. In ALL Christian countries, there are laws that were designed to protect women. Are those laws perfect ? Do they fail sometimes ? Yes, of course. Just like there are laws against murder, robbery etc. They do not work 100 % of the time.

However, if a woman has the courage to report abuses to the police, the system generally works to protect her. Example: it is quite common for an abused woman to get a judge to mandate that the abuser keep a distance of 100 feet from that woman. If he violates that judges order, he is re-arrested and charged with another crime.

Compare the laws in Christian countries against that of Muslim countries.
https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/islam-and-womens-rights/
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The “courage to report abuses to the police”-what do you know of courage? Explain your acts of courage to us. You live in Mexico, you can even get good treatment for your puppy in Mexico, according to you.
 
senior chef said:
One HUGE thing you are forgetting. In ALL Christian countries, there are laws that were designed to protect women. Are those laws perfect ? Do they fail sometimes ? Yes, of course. Just like there are laws against murder, robbery etc. They do not work 100 % of the time.

However, if a woman has the courage to report abuses to the police, the system generally works to protect her. Example: it is quite common for an abused woman to get a judge to mandate that the abuser keep a distance of 100 feet from that woman. If he violates that judges order, he is re-arrested and charged with another crime.

Compare the laws in Christian countries against that of Muslim countries.
https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/islam-and-womens-rights/
Click to expand...
The law does not protect women from abusive men. At best it punishes the offender. At worst it doesn't take the woman's complaint seriously. The most dangerous thing a woman can do is to leave an abusive and controlling husband. It is quite likely that she will then be murdered, or her children will be killed in front of her. None of this has anything to do with religion.
 
Alligatorob said:
You are right about the counties that have been taken over by extremists and conducting state sponsored terrorism, big problem. And a number of those active now are Muslim countries. My point was that we offend a lot of non-problem Muslims when we use terms like "Muslim terrorists". It also oversimplifies and misleads on the problem. That does us no good.

All states that sponsor terrorism today are not Muslim, places like North Korea, and even Russia.

Yes, fortunately today's KKK is much different from what it once was, and we are a better country for it. I was thinking more of the historic KKK, which 100 years ago had millions of members, and was probably involved in thousands of lynchings.
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The phrase "Muslim terrorists" is a descriptor. The terrorists we are talking about are specifically Muslim and they use their interpretation of Islam as a justification for their acts. If they were North Korean we would call them North Korean terrorists. My original point is that Muslim terrorists are not representative of Islam as a whole. That's where Senior Chef and I differ. But it does no good to whitewash or apologize for the acts of stridently Islamic groups like ISIS or al-Shebab.

The historic KKK was powerful and terrifying. The point is that its influence has diminished to essentially nothing. That's progress. The extirpation of Islamic-inspired terror would also be progress, as would the abolition of strictures on women, the abolition of punishments like cutting off the hands of those accused of theft, and other practices. I'm no theologian but I'm sure there is a way to reconcile that kind of progress with being a faithful Muslim.
 
Shero said:
Here again Diva: you refer to "double standards" - please clearly say what you mean and who is showing those double standards. As I said before, confront rather than insinuate. It makes life much easier.
I do not understand the statement "no harm, no foul" please explain?
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I covered the double standard thing with you in a previous reply. So clearly stated, I feel you held a double standard when you said I had no right to "beg to differ" with Lara about something I know and I have lived when I made my points (based on what I've learned as a former Christian and now Muslim) but you didn't say she had no right to say Muslims don't have a personal relationship with God (which is contrary to Muslim..thus my beliefs).
There are other hypocritical replies as well where people sweep "the facts" as you call them, under the rug and seem to refuse to acknowledge that terrible acts have been carried out in the name of Christianity.
 
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