What Do Real Muslims Believe?

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senior chef said:
Try selling that nonsense to the Taliban... the Saudis , where, until quite recently, women could not even get a drivers license... the Muslim women who are not allowed to even go shopping for groceries without her husband or one of his close relatives... Muslim women who are forced to wear truly bizarre clothing which covers every square inch of their bodies … including their faces... to any Muslim woman who has been beaten by Muslim men in the streets... to the spirits of women who have been stoned to death... to the women and girls of Afghanistan where, until the Americans came, it was illegal to teach any female to read and write.
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All of those things are true and awful. I know the perpetrators often use the Islamic religion to justify it. However this is not uniformly true of Muslims, I have spent time in Muslim countries like Indonesia, Kuwait, Bahrain, and the UAE where these things do not happen. The contrast between Kuwait and Saudi is a case in point, both are Muslim and they are close neighbors. However women have many more rights in Kuwait, I have seen Kuwaiti women on jetskis in bikinis! Never happen in Saudi. I think these things are more cultural tied to the local peoples than religious. Although Kuwait and Saudi are close neighbors their histories and ethnic makeups are very different.
 

TabbyAnn said:
...The Quran, on the other hand, contains civilian laws for controlling others and harsh punishments Muslims are to administer to each other for breaking those laws. It also contains the rules of engagement for war, which are not present in the teachings of Jesus, Buddha and other peaceful ideologies. These harsh civilian laws collected from the Quran, called Sharia Law, is the law of the land in most predominately Muslim countries, and include beatings, beheadings, chopping off body parts, wife beating, and so on. Saudi Arabia still practices beheadings in the public square.
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I was wondering when someone was going to post this elephant in the room.
 
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Certain portions of the bible also contain exhortations to administer vile punishments. Fortunately, times change. It is also good to remember that many Nazis espoused Christianity. Look how that worked out. From time immemorial, people have used religion as an excuse to exercise power over those they hate and or fear. To single out Islam is both prejudicial and ill informed.
 

Lara said:
I shortened this chapter ten-fold so if I'm not making myself clear you can read the whole chapter of John 31-58...and then you'll hopefully see it as I see it too. Thank you oldiebutgoody for this chance to clarify.
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Indeed. As I wrote he was only referring to a specific group, not to all. However, in 1 John 2:22 it is written that anyone and everyone who denied Jesus is Messiah is an "anti Christ": 1 JOHN 2:22 KJV "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (kingjamesbibleonline.org). Rev 19:20 indicates the Antichrist will be put into burning sulfur.
 
Shalimar said:
Certain portions of the bible also contain exhortations to administer vile punishments. Fortunately, times change. It is also good to remember that many Nazis espoused Christianity. Look how that worked out. From time immemorial, people have used religion as an excuse to exercise power over those they hate and or fear. To single out Islam is both prejudicial and ill informed.
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I don't think anyone here is singling out Islam. It just happens to be the subject of this post.
 
OneEyedDiva said:
Too bad you are so misinformed. In fact, Muslim women were given rights over 1,400 years ago, as stated in the Holy Quran, that women in this country didn't have, such as the right to own property, own their own businesses, participate in politics, get divorces, receive alimony (except if the woman was found guilty of open lewdness), the right to inheritance and handle their own finances. When I took a womens' study course around 1985 (I went to college as an adult), there were states in this country where women could not inherit property. And do you recall when women's suffrage was and why it took place? Look it up. it's late now so I won't take the time to do what I'd normally do...find links for you.
Also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said this about husbands and wives and this advice still stands and is often repeated by Muslim Imams and authors. "The best of men are those who are good to their wives" Muslim men are advised concentrate on their wives' good traits and overlook the negative ones. Muslim men are told they should ask their wives' permission to leave the conjugal bed (ie: make sure she's satisfied).They are also advised to seek counsel from their wives in important matters, help their wives around the house and stay involved with raising the children. Muslim husbands and wives are advised to "play together", to enjoy one another and be "blankets" for one another (eg: protection).
Clearly you have overlooked the number of abused women in this country who are not Muslims, whose husbands are not Muslims in keeping with your propensity for tunnel vision! And it's not just some Muslim women who get abused...it's some women of all races, creeds, religions and social backgrounds. Some of that is cultural...not religious.
@Pecos
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Also note the fact that 70-80% of new converts to Islam are women.
 
Earlier I made historical references to Muslims protecting Jews from persecution and extermination. Another instance that I overlooked was the fate of Kavkaz (Caucasus) Mountain Jews who were being hunted down by Nazis. They were protected by local Muslims and their lives were spared as shown below:


Soviet times, Holocaust and modern history[edit]​


Synagogue in Gilaki quarter of Qırmızı Qəsəbə which was reopened in 1941 after initially being closed by Bolsheviks.
By 1926, more than 85% of Mountain Jews in Dagestan were already classed as urban. Mountain Jews were mainly concentrated in the cities of Makhachkala, Buynaksk, Derbent, Nalchik and Grozny in North Caucasus; and Quba and Baku in Azerbaijan.[25]

In the Second World War, some Mountain Jews settlements in North Caucasus, including parts of their area in Kabardino-Balkaria were occupied by the German Wehrmacht at the end of 1942. During this period, they killed several hundreds of Mountain Jews until the Germans retreated early 1943. On September 20, 1942, Germans killed 420 Mountain Jews near the village of Bogdanovka. Some 1000–1500 Mountain Jews were murdered during the Holocaust. Many Mountain Jews survived, however, because German troops did not reach all their areas; in addition, attempts succeeded to convince local German authorities that this group were "religious" but not "racial" Jews.[26][27]

The Soviet Army's advances in the area brought the Nalchik community under its protection.[28] The Mountain Jewish community of Nalchik was the largest Mountain Jewish community occupied by Nazis,[28] and the vast majority of the population has survived. With the help of their Kabardian neighbors, Mountain Jews of Nalchik convinced the local German authorities that they were Tats, the native people similar to other Caucasus Mountain peoples, not related to the ethnic Jews, who merely adopted Judaism.[28] The annihilation of the Mountain Jews was suspended, contingent on racial investigation.[26] Although the Nazis watched the village carefully, Rabbi Nachamil ben Hizkiyahu hid Sefer Torahs by burying them in a fake burial ceremony.[29] The city was liberated a few months later.



Mountain Jews - Wikipedia





While Western professing Christians continually accuse Muslims of hating Jews and attempting to exterminate them, it is a historical fact that millions of Jews are alive today because Muslims saved their lives. Saving other's lives is what Muslims really believe in.
 
Shalimar said:
Certain portions of the bible also contain exhortations to administer vile punishments. Fortunately, times change. It is also good to remember that many Nazis espoused Christianity. Look how that worked out. From time immemorial, people have used religion as an excuse to exercise power over those they hate and or fear. To single out Islam is both prejudicial and ill informed.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the title of this thread "What do real Muslims believe ?"
Had it been 'What do real Christians believe ?' then we would be talking about Christians … not Muslims. In any event, Christians do not hijack passenger jets and then crash them into buildings full of innocent people.
 
senior chef said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the title of this thread "What do real Muslims believe ?"
Had it been 'What do real Christians believe ?' then we would be talking about Christians … not Muslims. In any event, Christians do not hijack passenger jets and then crash them into buildings full of innocent people.
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So, 19 Muslims(out of 1.9 billion ) hijack passenger jets and then crash them into buildings. This is statically insignificant, you do realize? Only the most closed minded would accept this as being "proof" that Muslims are more likely than Christians to commit mass murder /atrocities.

I'm not here to bash Christians, but surely anyone with internet access can find many instances of mass violence perpetrated by Christians.
 
Nathan said:
So, 19 Muslims(out of 1.9 billion ) hijack passenger jets and then crash them into buildings. This is statically insignificant, you do realize? Only the most closed minded would accept this as being "proof" that Muslims are more likely than Christians to commit mass murder /atrocities.

I'm not here to bash Christians, but surely anyone with internet access can find many instances of mass violence perpetrated by Christians.
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Nathan, if you can find any incident of Christians hijacking passenger planes and slamming them into buildings, full of innocent people, then I'll apologize and retract everything I have said.

If you can find any incident of Christians murdering Olympic athletes then I'll apologize. (Munich)

If you can find any incident of Christians hijacking cruise liners and murdering Jews, (Leon Klinghoffer), then I'll apologize.

Obviously, the Nazi's did far, far worse. However that was not Christianity based. It was based entirely on the mad ravings of the National Socialist Party.

Christians have evolved into civilized people. Can the same be said of Muslims ?
 
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Lara said:
Huh? Well thought out? feywon's reply, "get a grip on your prejudices" was directed toward @senior chef in post #254, and I'm not defending him. But what about your own prejudices toward Christians, feywon? And judging us as "patriarchal BS oppression"?? If you had read the New Testament you would know all the answers to your questions. But I'll answer them in a short version.

I'm sorry to hear you have so much anger and animosity toward Christians of today. Maybe this will help...

This thread is not about "the history of the world". It's not about the Old Testament even. It's about now...today. You said "Christians continue to be guilty of patriarchal BS". Are you talking about the Pope? I'm not Catholic but...So What if they want a leader they all agree on? If someone doesn't like it they can pick a different church. That's the beauty of many different churches...we all can worship how we choose.

Are you talking about how God created man to be physically stronger and expected to be the leader of the household in the Old Testament? And women were meant to nurture, heal, to have children at a time when it was necessary to populate the earth. When a husband and wife argue about a household decision and no side is a winning then someone has to end up making a decision. It was to facilitate peace, harmony, and order. It was to keep the family together. It wasn't in the 10 Commandments. It's not a requirement to get to heaven.

There is one chapter in the NT that admonishes women in the Church of Corinth to be silent...it's not oppression when read in context. It was because they were gossiping and being loud which was disruptive in the church and a reason for using men as the church leaders as well. You have to agree that many (not all) women are more into gossip and being catty than men. It wasn't oppression of women. It was natural consequences.

Christians of today are using the New Testament as a guide for becoming more Christ-like each and every day. If they aren't trying then they aren't obeying God.

feywon, you said, "...will someone please explain when anyone starts citing all the abuses and atrocities committed by Christians the response is always---'Oh, well that's not MY brand of Christianity' or 'That's not real or all Christians'."

It's because the Bible is crystal clear, "By their fruits ye shall know them". It further says if a "christian" sins the same sin over and over and doesn't repent, then "They will say Lord Lord and I will know them not".
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And this is a problem for me and many people, where a Christian, according to the Bible, can sin, over and over the same sin, and then, supposedly, according to the Bible, “repent” and JC is, hmm, well, sure if you have repented, and you are sincere, you are forgiven-come on in. 😂

And the victim, the survivor is, hmm, waving her/his arm screaming, hey, JC, what the heck? Yup, the Bible, hurray for the NT 🤦🏻‍♀️-I am sticking with the Ten Commandments.
 
Feywon said: “This thread was an opportunity for those of you who have never actually known any Muslims to learn something:”

That is a blanket statement. To learn anything one must go to the source i.e. the holy books etc.

Feywon said: “you could have asked questions of a practicing member of the faith why she converted, or about her daily habits that are related to her faith, about how her her faith informs who she is as a human being.

That is definitely not learning about the faith. That is reading someone’s testimony which can be misleading. Go to the source as I said above.

Feywon said: “Why when you acknowledge you don't know much about the faith (except what you read in biased biased media and social media commentaries) would you presume to make statements about that faith instead of inquiring of a member of it what they believe?”

Here again you are assuming all media reports are biased. Why do you do that? There are many factual documentaries, praised by Muslim leaders for their authenticity.

This thread is about “Real Muslims” not Christians or anything else, so we talk about Muslims, okay? What is a real Muslim? A real Muslim follows devotedly the Five Pillars of Islam. The five pillars are : the declaration of faith (shahada), prayer (salah), alms-giving (zakat), fasting (sawm) and pilgrimage (hajj). They are accepted by Muslims globally regardless of ethnic, regional or sectarian differences. Practice all that and you can say you are a “Real Muslim.”

Another thing: to understand a religion you must study the life of the person who started that religion. Most of us know many things about the life of Jesus and other prophets etc. so, it is important to at least read the Sira which is a short version of the life of Mohammed.

I am a lover of biographies and yes, I have read it. It is not only a biography but also a sacred Islamic text of how devout Muslims should live their lives. A point mentioned: Mohammed says to accept all religions and treat no one differently because of their religion. Do not condemn, the Christians, the Jews, the Hindus or others.

I could write a lot more,but why trouble myself! But this I will say:

I believe we are all heading in the same direction, but some will arrive there, wherever, with very high blood pressure and some will be calm and full of grace.
I will also say in my extended family I have Jews, Muslims and Christians and I llove them all!!
 
Aneeda72 said:
And this is a problem for me and many people, where a Christian, according to the Bible, can sin, over and over the same sin, and then, supposedly, according to the Bible, “repent” and JC is, hmm, well, sure if you have repented, and you are sincere, you are forgiven-come on in. 😂

And the victim, the survivor is, hmm, waving her/his arm screaming, hey, JC, what the heck? Yup, the Bible, hurray for the NT 🤦🏻‍♀️-I am sticking with the Ten Commandments.
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No, that's according to Aneeda, not according to the Bible.
 
senior chef said:
Nathan, if you can find any incident of Christians hijacking passenger planes and slamming them into buildings, full of innocent people, then I'll apologize and retract everything I have said.

If you can find any incident of Christians murdering Olympic athletes then I'll apologize. (Munich)

If you can find any incident of Christians hijacking cruise liners and murdering Jews, (Leon Klinghoffer), then I'll apologize.

Obviously, the Nazi's did far, far worse. However that was not Christianity based. It was based entirely on the mad ravings of the National Socialist Party.

Christians have evolved into civilized people. Can the same be said of Muslims ?
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Thanks, but I'm not going to play the patsy, why don't you go search google and present evidence to support your position? I'm not seeking an apology or retraction from you, but I am standing by my assertion that your argument that Muslims are more likely to commit atrocities is purely infantile BS.
 
OneEyedDiva said:
Islamophobia has spread so widely because people take the worst of what they see so called Muslims do and judge all Muslims by those things.
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OK so let's take this discussion back on track. It occurred to me that folks are forgetting WHY there is even a conflict between Palestinians(not specifically Muslims!) and the West.
In 1947 the Palestinians got kicked out of their homeland by Western powers, and left to rot in refugee camps for over 30 years. I'm not going to provide a link, you all are old enough to remember this. As time past, and promise after promise was broken, the Palestinians that were left to rot in refugee camps realized that nobody cared, and then some became committed to seek justice in their own fashion.

You can only keep your knee on someone's neck for so long, after a while they might just take exception to that and take action on their own.
 
Shero said:
His posts are not about discussing Islam, it is all about denegration and hate????
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I don't agree with what he says, not on this topic anyway, and have often tried to respond.

However in my experience he does represent what a lot of people believe. And he is an articulate intelligent person. So much as I may disagree with him I read his posts and have learned from him.
 

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