Who are we? (The thread on religion, that Lennon's "Imagine" receives not a single "Like"!)

CAKCy said:
I don't love the song. I love the message of it! ;)
Click to expand...
Really?
It is as unrealistic, as incognizant of the varieties of human nature as any religions, myth or childhood fantasy.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us, only sky No problem, while i believe in an afterlife i don't believe in Heaven/Hell anyway.

Imagine all the people
Livin' for today Really? Society would collapse if nobody thought beyond TODAY, production would stop, utilities--because you have to think about tomorrow to realize some things have to be done co-operatively, that infrastructure is needed. Not to mention food production. And yes i'm taking it literally. i meditate, i practice mindfulness, but i also know i have to live in this physical reality and that requires certain concessions to reality.
Ah

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too i say again, y'all will probably get sick of me saying it: if you think doing away with borders and religions would stop all wars, you are naive. The desires, fears and flaws that spawn human conflict spring from human nature. i know thereare millions, maybe even billions on the planet who nurture their own better natures---but the bottom line is that the "Might makes right" folks will be with us for generations to come (barring some major event that removed them from gene pool) and guess what? As i told some Anti Viet War folks back in the day while stuffing envelopes: If you are going to be a full-on pacifist you need to accept that the proviolence folks will have no problem beating you, shooting you, killing you. They said i was too cynical, and 'not in America' that was of course before Kent State.

Imagine all the people
Livin' life in peace That is a dream, a goal to work toward, i don't expect to see it in this lifetime.
You

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one Here he's stating his 'ideals' yet in his private life he did not adhere to them.

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger As with 'no countries, no religion' that is not going to do it because first you have to somehow change all the people for whom no matter how much they have, it is never enough and don't mind cheating, taking advantage of others who are just scraping by to be able to have more themselves. This is the problem i have with the anarchists i've talked to--they IMAGINE a Utopian world springing up should all governments fall, but not one of them has given me a shed of idea of HOW that could happen. It is totally ignoring the various kinds of human nature.
A brotherhood of man

Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world Again, lovely idea, but totally unrealistic anytime soon. Certainly an admirable goal.
You

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
 

CAKCy said:
I'm not very convinced with this, as the tribes/societies of hunters/gatherers still had their "leaders" (who always got the lion's share). Furthermore, I believe that the status of the female member of the species was way lower than what it should be. I think that Christ was the first one to state that sharing should become a duty and not a part of charity.
Click to expand...
Actually, recent anthropological and archaeological finds have 1) Lent credence to the legends of female WARRIORS, and 2) female shamans, and 'healers' in early civilizations. The stereotype cave man dragging woman to his cave is likely as exaggerated as the notion Neanderthals were barbaric. Bones with healed breaks, and remains indicating the deceased lived with a disease for a long time before succumbing make it clear they cared for the injured and ill while still alive as well as buried them in ways that indicated some concept of 'afterlife'.

Both Christ and Muhammed preached respect for women--yet when their teachings became foundations for religions those religions went heavy on Patriarchal supremacy. And 'charity' became a way to try and 'secure' ones place in 'heaven'. Even some Hindus corrupt their faith's teaching that when you help someone who can't repay you--the 'Universe' (or Gods) will. While some Hindus indiscriminately help others in need with no thought for any 'repayment' just because its right if you are able to do so, others say/do things making it clear they're counting on the bigger 'repayment'.
So once again--the issue is human nature.
 

Sunny said:
While I see the hypocrisy in parts of this song, I agree with the "no religion" line. I think religion is responsible for more bloodshed, cruelty, wars, lack of respect, belief in nonsense, discrimination, repression of women, and the list goes on and on.... than any other evils mankind has come up with.
Click to expand...
And who built those 'negative' aspects of religion into them? HUMAN BEINGS, mostly male--the fault lies not in the stars or any faith, but in ourselves. Blaming religion and governments, that's a great way to shift responsibility elsewhere.
 
feywon said:
Really?
It is as unrealistic, as incognizant of the varieties of human nature as any religions, myth or childhood fantasy.
Click to expand...
Nobody said that it would happen overnight. There's a hell of a lot of education that has to take place before the idea becomes reality. In your country there is still a struggle to accept the fact the white people and black people are not any different!

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us, only sky No problem, while i believe in an afterlife i don't believe in Heaven/Hell anyway.
Click to expand...

Aren't you a sinner? :)

Imagine all the people
Livin' for today Really? Society would collapse if nobody thought beyond TODAY, production would stop, utilities--because you have to think about tomorrow to realize some things have to be done co-operatively, that infrastructure is needed. Not to mention food production. And yes i'm taking it literally. i meditate, i practice mindfulness, but i also know i have to live in this physical reality and that requires certain concessions to reality.
Click to expand...

Matthew 6:34: Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own.

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too i say again, y'all will probably get sick of me saying it: if you think doing away with borders and religions would stop all wars, you are naive. The desires, fears and flaws that spawn human conflict spring from human nature. i know thereare millions, maybe even billions on the planet who nurture their own better natures---but the bottom line is that the "Might makes right" folks will be with us for generations to come (barring some major event that removed them from gene pool) and guess what? As i told some Anti Viet War folks back in the day while stuffing envelopes: If you are going to be a full-on pacifist you need to accept that the proviolence folks will have no problem beating you, shooting you, killing you. They said i was too cynical, and 'not in America' that was of course before Kent State.
Click to expand...

There's a point in Switzerland where if one stands one is partly in France, partly in Germany and partly in Switzerland. There are no guards or customs. How naïve is that? 75 years ago Germany was the enemy of the world. Today they live with practically no borders. How difficult, do you think, is it for this to happen in other countries? Countries are working towards forming unions. And these unions are encompassing more and more people.

Imagine all the people
Livin' life in peace That is a dream, a goal to work toward, i don't expect to see it in this lifetime.
Click to expand...

At least you are not... "punching" non stop! :)

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one Here he's stating his 'ideals' yet in his private life he did not adhere to them.
Click to expand...

I don't care about the messenger.

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger As with 'no countries, no religion' that is not going to do it because first you have to somehow change all the people for whom no matter how much they have, it is never enough and don't mind cheating, taking advantage of others who are just scraping by to be able to have more themselves. This is the problem i have with the anarchists i've talked to--they IMAGINE a Utopian world springing up should all governments fall, but not one of them has given me a shed of idea of HOW that could happen. It is totally ignoring the various kinds of human nature.
A brotherhood of man
Click to expand...

As I said above, I don't expect it to happen overnight. We see more and more entities in the world moving towards that goal. The Scandinavian countries are increasing their tax rates. The USA are moving towards more liberal ground. Billionaires realize that they should give back their fortunes (Gates - The Giving Pledge).

Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world Again, lovely idea, but totally unrealistic anytime soon. Certainly an admirable goal.
Click to expand...

At least you find the idea lovely. I agree it's unrealistic anytime soon. Was the fall of the Berlin wall realistic? Was the fall of the Soviet Union realistic?

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Click to expand...

I'm a dreamer too. It's not a matter of IF. It's a matter of WHEN... :)
 
feywon said:
Actually, recent anthropological and archaeological finds have 1) Lent credence to the legends of female WARRIORS, and 2) female shamans, and 'healers' in early civilizations. The stereotype cave man dragging woman to his cave is likely as exaggerated as the notion Neanderthals were barbaric. Bones with healed breaks, and remains indicating the deceased lived with a disease for a long time before succumbing make it clear they cared for the injured and ill while still alive as well as buried them in ways that indicated some concept of 'afterlife'.

Both Christ and Muhammed preached respect for women--yet when their teachings became foundations for religions those religions went heavy on Patriarchal supremacy. And 'charity' became a way to try and 'secure' ones place in 'heaven'. Even some Hindus corrupt their faith's teaching that when you help someone who can't repay you--the 'Universe' (or Gods) will. While some Hindus indiscriminately help others in need with no thought for any 'repayment' just because its right if you are able to do so, others say/do things making it clear they're counting on the bigger 'repayment'.
So once again--the issue is human nature.
Click to expand...

Interesting. It is a shame that the female role has been demoted and the male promoted. Ancient Egypt has the Pharaoh being buried along with his wives alive.

My understanding is that "charity" (at least in Christianity) is a duty and not up to the individual.

Human nature lacking education and culturing will always be unable to understand or embrace higher standards (or ideals(?)). Religions tried to make them achievable through the reward system (heaven and hell, virgins etc.) but the truth is that without education (and limiting religion's powers) human nature will not help towards the goal.
 
CAKCy said:
Interesting. It is a shame that the female role has been demoted and the male promoted. Ancient Egypt has the Pharaoh being buried along with his wives alive.

My understanding is that "charity" (at least in Christianity) is a duty and not up to the individual.

Human nature lacking education and culturing will always be unable to understand or embrace higher standards (or ideals(?)). Religions tried to make them achievable through the reward system (heaven and hell, virgins etc.) but the truth is that without education (and limiting religion's powers) human nature will not help towards the goal.
Click to expand...
Throughout human history you will find all kinds of people and practices.

In all of the Abrahamic religion the concept of charity as a 'duty'
is somewhat present, but also in others, like both the Hindu and Sikh belief systems. However, in practice, human nature comes into play and motives are not always 'pure'. Not that anyone in dire need really cares about the giver's motive unless they are demand some illegal or immoral form of repayment. If you are desperately hungry and someone gives you food or money to buy food you don't really care if it comes from some intrinsic goodness, to feel good about themselves or earn some sort of reward from whatever God they believe in.

IMO human nature, (particularly of those who feel might makes right, by which my mean not just those who use brute force but social and psychological forces of demands to conform to religious, social, cultural 'norms' ) in an impediment to a more peaceful, equitable and loving world.
 
From what I've read, Lennon was inspired by Yoko's writings and also by a prayer book when he wrote Imagine. Much like Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite, where Lennon took the lyrics from a circus poster, they're just lyrics — nothing more than that. Lennon was a songwriter, always searching for lyrics much like David Gilmore was always searching for sounds that could be used in his compositions for Pink Floyd.

The lines "Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can..." is blatantly hypocritical when heard in the context of Lennon performing the song in his palatial mansion on a grand piano. Perhaps the lines should have been, Imagine you're as rich as me, I wonder if you can. He liked to pretend he grew up working class, but he was solid middle class. It was Paul who grew up in a working class. George, too, I believe.

I tend to cringe every time I hear Imagine. It's been played so often that it's become cliché. The only reason we listen to it today is because it was written and performed by our beloved John Lennon, and I don't mean that sarcastically. I remember the exact moment I heard that he died. He was a huge part of my childhood and a bit of me died when he was murdered.
 
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CAKCy said:
Nobody said that it would happen overnight. There's a hell of a lot of education that has to take place before the idea becomes reality. In your country there is still a struggle to accept the fact the white people and black people are not any different!



Aren't you a sinner? :)



Matthew 6:34: Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own.



There's a point in Switzerland where if one stands one is partly in France, partly in Germany and partly in Switzerland. There are no guards or customs. How naïve is that? 75 years ago Germany was the enemy of the world. Today they live with practically no borders. How difficult, do you think, is it for this to happen in other countries? Countries are working towards forming unions. And these unions are encompassing more and more people.



At least you are not... "punching" non stop! :)



I don't care about the messenger.



As I said above, I don't expect it to happen overnight. We see more and more entities in the world moving towards that goal. The Scandinavian countries are increasing their tax rates. The USA are moving towards more liberal ground. Billionaires realize that they should give back their fortunes (Gates - The Giving Pledge).



At least you find the idea lovely. I agree it's unrealistic anytime soon. Was the fall of the Berlin wall realistic? Was the fall of the Soviet Union realistic?



I'm a dreamer too. It's not a matter of IF. It's a matter of WHEN... :)
Click to expand...
I said i don't believe in the Heaven/Hell construct, that does not preclude my believing there are natural outcomes/consequences for our words and deeds.

While i find some scriptures quotes relevant, some even wise,that particular verse is not. The author lived in a very different time, society and world.

The Berlin Wall fell due to the stresses, both economic and social, that were already building toward the collapse of that government two years later. While many may have hoped for those events, thay did not happen for any idealistic reasons rather for very practical ones.
 
It's strange how some of the worst people produce beautiful, inspiring works. Many artists and writers were clearly nuts, and not all the musicians were saints either. Wagner, for instance, was pretty much of a Nazi in his beliefs. He was cruel and antisemtic. And yet, his Liebestod was one of the most exquisite pieces of music ever written. I've never understood how such horrible people could produce something so beautiful.
 
Irwin said:
From what I've read, Lennon was inspired by Yoko's writings and also by a prayer book when he wrote Imagine. Much like Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite, where Lennon took the lyrics from a circus poster, they're just lyrics — nothing more than that. Lennon was a songwriter, always searching for lyrics much like David Gilmore was always searching for sounds that could be used in his compositions for Pink Floyd.

The lines "Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can..." is blatantly hypocritical when heard in the context of Lennon performing the song in his palatial mansion on a grand piano. Perhaps the lines should have been, Imagine you're as rich as me, I wonder if you can. He liked to pretend he grew up working class, but he was solid middle class. It was Paul who grew up in a working class. George, too, I believe.

I tend to cringe every time I hear Imagine. It's been played so often that it's become cliché. The only reason we listen to it today is because it was written and performed by our beloved John Lennon, and I don't mean that sarcastically. I remember the exact moment I heard that he died. He was a huge part of my childhood and a bit of me died when he was murdered.
Click to expand...
I never knew that Lennon was Middle class, from everything i'd heard they all 4 were. Which says a lot. Despite everything they didn't call him on that.
I was 34 yrs old when he was murdered and hit me hard too, partly because it triggered relatively fresh memories of someone i loved being shot, happening just 2 days before the 2nd anniversary of my personal loss.
 
Irwin said:
From what I've read, Lennon was inspired by Yoko's writings and also by a prayer book when he wrote Imagine. Much like Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite, where Lennon took the lyrics from a circus poster, they're just lyrics — nothing more than that. Lennon was a songwriter, always searching for lyrics much like David Gilmore was always searching for sounds that could be used in his compositions for Pink Floyd.

The lines "Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can..." is blatantly hypocritical when heard in the context of Lennon performing the song in his palatial mansion on a grand piano. Perhaps the lines should have been, Imagine you're as rich as me, I wonder if you can. He liked to pretend he grew up working class, but he was solid middle class. It was Paul who grew up in a working class. George, too, I believe.

I tend to cringe every time I hear Imagine. It's been played so often that it's become cliché. The only reason we listen to it today is because it was written and performed by our beloved John Lennon, and I don't mean that sarcastically. I remember the exact moment I heard that he died. He was a huge part of my childhood and a bit of me died when he was murdered.
Click to expand...

Irwin, we agree on something. There's a first time for everything.
 
CAKCy said:
Socialism (which is the future, btw, if we want the planet to survive) is an economic system that was never given a fair chance to prove itself. People's immaturity and illiteracy and the greed of the leading hierarchy were/are the reasons of its non-working.
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The term "socialism" is used nowadays as a slur, designed to be divisive by people who really don't know much about economic systems. The U.S. is far from becoming "Socialist", but recently barely steered away from becoming Fascist. I predict that someday the consolidation of power by the rich oligarchs and corporations will be complete, and what was a middle class in the U.S will be mostly working poor.
 
Pepper said:
"Imagine" is the song I picked to dance with my son at his wedding 7 years ago because I love it so much, want my son to love it (he does), and it's easy to dance to.
Click to expand...

Pepper, I picked up a saying at my son's summer camp a million years ago: "Never yuck on someone else's yums." If you love it, then it's great by me, and never another negative word from me about it.
 
Nathan said:
The term "socialism" is used nowadays as a slur, designed to be divisive by people who really don't know much about economic systems. The U.S. is far from becoming "Socialist", but recently barely steered away from becoming Fascist. I predict that someday the consolidation of power by the rich oligarchs and corporations will be complete, and what was a middle class in the U.S will be mostly working poor.
Click to expand...


There's no slur involved in describing socialism as community ownership of the means of production and distribution. That's what it is. People think it means Scandinavian-style social programs, which is not what socialism is. Those programs are great but they are funded by a capitalist economic system.
 
Fascism is a political system, just as democracy is a political system. Capitalism and socialism are economic systems. One thing fascism has in common with socialism is government ownership of the means of production.

"Fascism is generally defined as a political movement that embraces far-right nationalism and the forceful suppression of any opposition, all overseen by an authoritarian government. Fascists strongly oppose Marxism, liberalism and democracy, and believe the state takes precedence over individual interests. They favor centralized rule, often a single party or leader, and embrace the idea of a national rebirth, a new greatness for their country. Economic self-sufficiency is prized, often through state-controlled companies." Source: CBS News
 
JimBob1952 said:
There's no slur involved in describing socialism as community ownership of the means of production and distribution. That's what it is. People think it means Scandinavian-style social programs, which is not what socialism is. Those programs are great but they are funded by a capitalist economic system.
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Yes, socialism is community ownership of the means of production and distribution, but as I'm sure you are aware, "some people" sling around the term socialism expressly for the purpose of creating a derogatory image of public figures who embrace public funded programs that aid less fortunate members of society.
 
feywon said:
Throughout human history you will find all kinds of people and practices.

In all of the Abrahamic religion the concept of charity as a 'duty'
is somewhat present, but also in others, like both the Hindu and Sikh belief systems. However, in practice, human nature comes into play and motives are not always 'pure'. Not that anyone in dire need really cares about the giver's motive unless they are demand some illegal or immoral form of repayment. If you are desperately hungry and someone gives you food or money to buy food you don't really care if it comes from some intrinsic goodness, to feel good about themselves or earn some sort of reward from whatever God they believe in.

IMO human nature, (particularly of those who feel might makes right, by which my mean not just those who use brute force but social and psychological forces of demands to conform to religious, social, cultural 'norms' ) in an impediment to a more peaceful, equitable and loving world.
Click to expand...

From the recipient's POV it makes no difference the reason of the charity towards them, unless, as you say there is some sort of re-payment of illegal or immoral form.

I find it strange, though, that many believers find the word "Socialism" to be repelling when in fact it is part of their religious beliefs to practice Socialism not out of the goodness of their heart but as a duty.

You are absolutely right that power (of any nature) corrupts. Those who have tasted the "gains" of being in a position of power wouldn't want to lose that to a more peaceful, equitable and loving world.
 
Irwin said:
From what I've read, Lennon was inspired by Yoko's writings and also by a prayer book when he wrote Imagine. Much like Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite, where Lennon took the lyrics from a circus poster, they're just lyrics — nothing more than that. Lennon was a songwriter, always searching for lyrics much like David Gilmore was always searching for sounds that could be used in his compositions for Pink Floyd.

The lines "Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can..." is blatantly hypocritical when heard in the context of Lennon performing the song in his palatial mansion on a grand piano. Perhaps the lines should have been, Imagine you're as rich as me, I wonder if you can. He liked to pretend he grew up working class, but he was solid middle class. It was Paul who grew up in a working class. George, too, I believe.

I tend to cringe every time I hear Imagine. It's been played so often that it's become cliché. The only reason we listen to it today is because it was written and performed by our beloved John Lennon, and I don't mean that sarcastically. I remember the exact moment I heard that he died. He was a huge part of my childhood and a bit of me died when he was murdered.
Click to expand...

Maybe the message "Imagine no possessions" could be called hypocritical considering that it came from a rich person (living, mind you, in a capitalist society). I pay attention to the message and not the messenger. At the same time I'm not sure how difficult it would be for Lennon to give up his wealth if his dream was to come true tomorrow.
 
feywon said:
I said i don't believe in the Heaven/Hell construct, that does not preclude my believing there are natural outcomes/consequences for our words and deeds.

While i find some scriptures quotes relevant, some even wise,that particular verse is not. The author lived in a very different time, society and world.

The Berlin Wall fell due to the stresses, both economic and social, that were already building toward the collapse of that government two years later. While many may have hoped for those events, thay did not happen for any idealistic reasons rather for very practical ones.
Click to expand...

I "insist" on the sinner question. I don't think that cherry picking the scripture would be approved by the majority of the believers. (That does not mean that I do not admire your wisdom in practicing the essence/philosophy of the scripture and leaving out whatever was included for "control of the masses" purposes.

I don't disagree with your explanation of the reasons that brought the Berlin wall down. I brought it as an example of how the "impossible" can happen, given enough time for the circumstances to mature.

"Never say never" applies here very well. The same could happen with Lennon's dream...
 

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