Statues Defaced or Destroyed or Relocated - Priorities: Historic Preservation or Promulgating Racism ?

Em in Ohio

Em in Ohio

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OH HI OH
In my opinion, all statues are works of art. Many reflect pivotal characters throughout history. I hate seeing any of them destroyed. Even the statues of Confederates have their place. But, I don't think that place should be in the center of towns or a state capitol, but rather where the soldiers are buried.

I came across this image while researching a different topic. It made me wonder if this would now be considered racist. It depicts a Native American (formerly known as an 'indian') praying to his version of 'god,' the Great Spirit. Does it 'stereotype' Native Americans? (See thread about Aunt Jemima)

If this was placed at the location of the Battle of the Little Big Horn instead of a museum, would it be considered offensive to caucasians because the natives were victorious and killed Custer?

Appeal to the Great Spirit, 1908 statue by Cyrus Dallin, Museum of Fine Arts, Boston

Appeal to the Great Spirit, Boston MFA - IMG 3401.JPG

Custer's Last Stand: "Public response to the Great Sioux War varied in the immediate aftermath of the battle. Libbie Custer, Custer's widow, soon worked to burnish her husband's memory, and during the following decades Custer and his troops came to be considered iconic, even heroic, figures in American history. Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument honors those who fought on both sides."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Little_Bighorn
 

Rosemarie said:
Whatever excuse people like to come up with, defacing and damaging public statues is vandalism and should be regarded as a criminal offence. Why are the authorities standing back and allowing it to happen?
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The President asked the Governors of these states where the vandals have damaged and defaced the statues to ask him for help, but they have refused. They feel that by allowing these vandals to have their way will be less destructive than if they were to be challenged by the National Guard or military. We elected them, so we have to live with their decisions and the consequences of those decisions.

Just look at what is happening in Seattle. Do you think that ANTIFA and other radicals should be allowed to overtake a city here in America? We need real men to stand up and stop cowering to these young punks because that's all they are. If they want to fight, I hear there is a war going on over in the mid-East that they could surely fit in, but they would never go because over there, the other guys would be shooting back.

COWARDS!!! This is what we have elected. They took an oath of office and have not abided by it. I say it's time for them to go.
 
Been There said:
The President asked the Governors of these states where the vandals have damaged and defaced the statues to ask him for help, but they have refused. They feel that by allowing these vandals to have their way will be less destructive than if they were to be challenged by the National Guard or military. We elected them, so we have to live with their decisions and the consequences of those decisions.

Just look at what is happening in Seattle. Do you think that ANTIFA and other radicals should be allowed to overtake a city here in America? We need real men to stand up and stop cowering to these young punks because that's all they are. If they want to fight, I hear there is a war going on over in the mid-East that they could surely fit in, but they would never go because over there, the other guys would be shooting back.

COWARDS!!! This is what we have elected. They took an oath of office and have not abided by it. I say it's time for them to go.
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Actually the same here...we have had iconic statues destroyed or local govt blackmailed into removing them

I think people should read this pertinent piece written today in the media by Esther Krakue,

When I first moved to the UK from Ghana with my family in my early teens, the country that welcomed me was one where multiculturalism flourished and neighbours were warm and unassuming.

Your achievements were not prefaced by the colour of your skin or your place on the totem pole of identity politics.

People from ethnic and racial minorities were not constantly looking over their shoulders and assuming that every social interaction was laced with disdain or racism. It was a Britain where confidence trumped victimhood.



But, much to my dismay, the tone has shifted entirely, and worryingly, over the past five years.

Now I, a 24-year-old black woman of West African heritage, am expected to be mortally offended if someone dares assume that my dark skin might signal heritage not native to the British Isles.

I am expected to voice loudly my approval of white liberals who inform me of my inherent oppression as a ‘woman of colour’.

Amid the demonstrations and tumult of recent weeks, I have grown increasingly concerned about the methods and the wider far-Left political agenda of the Black Lives Matter movement here in the UK.

I have been horrified to watch this ridiculous campaign of tearing down statues and relics of British heritage escalate. It is a campaign that has yet to make any progress in tangibly helping me as a black person. And in recent weeks I have been increasingly vocal on Twitter about my concerns. But in doing so I have become targeted by a wave of vile online abuse.

Sorry, I've just realised this could be removed by admin for being too political, and I don't want to break the rules... so I'll just leave the rest on a link... for you all to read..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...E-dared-question-aims-Black-Lives-Matter.html
 
Since someone mentioned the Seattle situation, here is an exclusive report from a reporter who spent 5days inside the CHOP zone. A great time was had by all: rapes, violence, destruction of property, all in the name of positive change. Cops unwilling to go in to intervene.
You won't see the New York Times or Washington Post reporting this, it doesn't fit their agenda.
This is the not the future of this country. This IS the country.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/20/my-terrifying-5-day-stay-inside-seattles-autonomous-zone/
 
Gaer said:
This tears my heart out to see these great tributes and works of art destroyed and defaced. all of them! All men of greatness! Sioux warriors, Conferate Generals, George Washington? If they don't aknowledge him as the nations's first President, who was?
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You are so right, Gaer. And it doesn't stop with Confederates, we have statues of Lincoln and Grant being vandalized and torn down and defaced! I suspect most of the young people couldn't tell John Brown from Nathan Bedford Forrest, the state of education today that history is not taught.
 
Old&InTheWay said:
Since someone mentioned the Seattle situation, here is an exclusive report from a reporter who spent 5days inside the CHOP zone. A great time was had by all: rapes, violence, destruction of property, all in the name of positive change. Cops unwilling to go in to intervene.
You won't see the New York Times or Washington Post reporting this, it doesn't fit their agenda.
This is the not the future of this country. This IS the country.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/20/my-terrifying-5-day-stay-inside-seattles-autonomous-zone/
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How did I learn about what's going on in Seattle? I read about it in the Washington Post. The NY Times article about it can probably be copied, which I'll try to do.
 
I feel statues are works of art and were not intended to hurt anyone but to glorify those represented.

If we start tearing down history, where does it stop? Will we tear down the colosseum because people died there? I still believe most of us ( not of royal birth) :) were slaves to someone else, somewhere back in history and tearing down statues is just a diversion to solving the real problem which is creating equality and opportunity for all people.

Just IMHO.
 
chic said:
I feel statues are works of art and were not intended to hurt anyone but to glorify those represented.

If we start tearing down history, where does it stop? Will we tear down the colosseum because people died there? I still believe most of us ( not of royal birth) :) were slaves to someone else, somewhere back in history and tearing down statues is just a diversion to solving the real problem which is creating equality and opportunity for all people.

Just IMHO.
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I see your point, of course. Just knocking down at large is just nuts. Gen. Grant, for one.

The colosseum is an interesting example. So much violence, suffering and blood spilled there for human "entertainment". It's sickening, yet we respect the antiquity and the art of it's structure.

A few years ago a tourist was arrested and fined for putting graffiti on it. Someone posted somewhere, that it was an evil place and should have been demolished long ago.

I guess I'm of the opinion that sculpture may be art and therefore moved to a place of safe viewing, rather than "glorify" that which is despicable.
 
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Yep, statues are monuments to history: right or wrong- there part of our history.

Mr. Custer was an arrogant snot that got his command wiped out.
His wife defended his glory seeking behavior-and, and was successful
until well after her death.

Washington Redskins.
Indians, American Indians (didn't know they were Native American until three decades ago) have wanted the Redskins name changed to something less insulting.

I didn't know it was derogatory until I read an article about it...I agree with them, I guess.
 
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Been There said:
The President asked the Governors of these states where the vandals have damaged and defaced the statues to ask him for help, but they have refused. They feel that by allowing these vandals to have their way will be less destructive than if they were to be challenged by the National Guard or military. We elected them, so we have to live with their decisions and the consequences of those decisions.

Just look at what is happening in Seattle. Do you think that ANTIFA and other radicals should be allowed to overtake a city here in America? We need real men to stand up and stop cowering to these young punks because that's all they are. If they want to fight, I hear there is a war going on over in the mid-East that they could surely fit in, but they would never go because over there, the other guys would be shooting back.

COWARDS!!! This is what we have elected. They took an oath of office and have not abided by it. I say it's time for them to go.
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An excellent reason to get involved in local politics and vote in ALL elections, even the little ones.
 
Sunny said:
How did I learn about what's going on in Seattle? I read about it in the Washington Post. The NY Times article about it can probably be copied, which I'll try to do.
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Someone was murdered there also, so I heard. Is that correct? You can't have another summer of love right now as Seattle's mayor suggested because people are so crazy from Covid related stress. There's craziness going on all over our country and the world also.
 
chic said:
Someone was murdered there also, so I heard. Is that correct? You can't have another summer of love right now as Seattle's mayor suggested because people are so crazy from Covid related stress. There's craziness going on all over our country and the world also.
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Yes. there as a shooting death in that CHOPS zone where police are "not allowed" (???)
Not sure if it was due to Covid related stress, Chic.
 
jerry old said:
...Washington Redskins. Indians, American Indians (didn't know they were Native American until three decades ago) have wanted the Redskins name changed to something less insulting. I didn't know it was derogatory until I read an article about it...I agree with them, I guess.
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Hmmm. I see these names as proud tributes, I guess. Why would a team adopt the name of a group that they didn't respect?

In Cleveland, the opposition was to the characterization of Chief Wahoo. I don't recall as much debate about the team name 'Indians.' Then again, perhaps the term 'Redskins' does have historically negative connotations. It was definitely divisive in the old Western movies.

There is a local school named South High that had a football team called the Rebels and a mascot in full confederate uniform. They decorated with Confederate flags. Now, that I found clearly offensive.

At least, it does give one a chance to analyze one's own sensitivities. At my age, I've given up on trying to always be 'socially correct.' The prefered names given to distinguish certain groups have changed so often, and I always wonder who decided that such and such a word was no longer acceptable.
 
Sunny said:
How did I learn about what's going on in Seattle? I read about it in the Washington Post. The NY Times article about it can probably be copied, which I'll try to do.
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Sunny, the point of my post has to do with the extreme circumstances that are occuring at CHOP. As long as you get your news from the NYT and CNN, you will continue to see their interpretation of events through their partisan, hateful, close-minded bias which is spoon fed to the sheeple in continual and ample doses, disguised as truth. They will leave out and simply not cover realities that do not fit their pre-exisiting POV. And that is exactly how they want it.
 
Old, where did I ever say that I get my news from the NYT and CNN? My reference to the Washington Post and the NYT was in answer to you; YOU were the one who quoted those sources. (How did CNN get into this?) I do get the Washington Post, as it's my only local newspaper. And believe it or not, there are times I have some issues with it, although in general it's pretty good.

As for the NYT, although I respect it as a very great newspaper, I never said I get my news from it. I found a reference to the CHAZ debacle on their web site and copied it for you, after you said we won't find anything about it in the Post or the Times, as it didn't fit their "agenda," whatever that's supposed to mean.

So let's stick to the facts: after you said the liberal media wouldn't have anything about this Seattle story because it didn't fit their agenda, I copied at least one of the stories about it in the NY Times. So then you proceeded to accuse me of getting my news from sources that I never said I use, and to start shouting about their "partisan hateful, close-minded bias," etc., etc. Frankly, you just sound like you are itching for a fight; none of what you've been carrying on about with the CHOP story makes any sense at all. Especially with me; where did I ever say I was a supporter of this pseudo-hippie, retro-60's nonsense? I think what they're doing is ridiculous; I'm just leaving the hate out of it.
 
What do you do with a work of art, which depicts a racist aspect of history. It may be a well crafted piece of art. But it also supports a flagrantly racist viewpoint. It's a good piece of art, but a lousy message. I think as we improve our democracy, we are going to face the wrongs of the past. I'm not sure what we do with art that glorifies those wrongs.
I have close relatives, who are "Indians", and they accept that term, but "Redskins" is akin to the "N"word for them.
 
fuzzybuddy said:
What do you do with a work of art, which depicts a racist aspect of history. It may be a well crafted piece of art. But it also supports a flagrantly racist viewpoint. It's a good piece of art, but a lousy message. I think as we improve our democracy, we are going to face the wrongs of the past. I'm not sure what we do with art that glorifies those wrongs.
I have close relatives, who are "Indians", and they accept that term, but "Redskins" is akin to the "N"word for them.
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There are many museums dedicated to specific topics, so racist pictures should be there, not in a public court house, a state capitol building, etc.

My father and I watched tv westerns and were 'on the side of the 'Redskins,' not the 'Palefaces.' I knew that they had a right to be pissed off. They were mistreated and they retaliated. It's a natural response. This was the way I was raised - I was taught a realistic view of history at home.

One of my dad's fishing buddies was an Indian. My first husband was half Indian (Blackfoot). Neither of these people ever took issue with labels, as far as I can remember. My mother's closest friend was 'a'*****.' She was 'colored.' She was never 'black.'

(Why does my use of the word '*****' get changed to '*****' when I try to save this?)

Really - my issue about labels is that I don't know who decides when they should be changed. When *****es became 'colored people' then 'blacks,' I asked my friends and coworkers this question - They didn't know and didn't care. I heard the word 'honky' in shows too - a reference to white people. I didn't take offense to it. It just didn't matter to me.

I was also raised with National Geographic magazines delivered to my house, which exposed me to many cultures worldwide - and easy acceptance and appreciation of differences. I wasn't raised to be a racist or to discriminate because of color, religion, nationality, or anything else. People were only judged by their personalities, not their arbitrary grouping. For that, I am grateful.
 
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THIS IS MESSED UP - editing and saving deletes the word that I used and replaces it with *****. It's NOT a bad word! See below!

aNEGRO - This is my point about changing history, this editor keeps replacing my word with ***** . I'm going with a purposeful typo so the paragraph makes sense and doesn't lose context!
 

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