Striking back in relationships, (no not physically obviously)

[grahamg]

love is a four letter word..........sometimes

This early response to the OP has me baffled, though that's not altogether a bad thing, especially as a definition of the word "love" is difficult to arrive at (or one all can agree upon is, hence our UK family courts shy away from ever using the word during their proceedings and it doesn't appear in statutes of families/divorce etc., or rules associated with them, though some US states do use the word love in their guidance on the operation of their family law systems).

 

[grahamg]

I thought it might assist some people to understand the background to "everything" to put these factors out there for consideration as they must have some bearing I believe, albeit it all happened a long time ago, (and if everyone moved on as advised, I suppose they wouldn't be remembered or repeated).

Whilst my child told me to "keep coming daddy", (and "I hate you, you are horrible", as already covered), these things were also going on:

My daughter hugged me as she got in my car for a contact visit, the contact visits were cut in half on my returning her home, with no explanation given.

My large family each gave my daughter an Easter egg, so she ended up with about seven chocolate Easter eggs to try to eat. She was told I'd eaten her Easter eggs, and was very relieved when she found all seven waiting for her at my home, (a minor incident I know, but bear with me).

My large family gave my daughter birthday and Christmas presents, my daughter refused to take them into her home, when I returned her.

My daughter was clothed in secondhand gear when I picked her up, and on her returning home she was changed and showered so that any smells associated with myself and my parents farm were dispelled, (my ex was a farmers daughter as well doing this).

I bought my daughter expensive party dresses on three occasions, and had a professional photographer take some wonderful shots of her, (this occurred over about four years). She would never wear the dresses again, and I was told by my ex they were in a "clothes archive" so they were all eventually returned to me, (and I passed them on to my neices who were very pleased to wear them).

If I arrived a few minutes early to collect my child, she never appeared around the front door of her home until the exact time arranged. My daughter worried when I returned her home, for example from a trip to the seaside, that she would not arrive home at exactly the right time, (at one minute to the appointed time she told me to "hurry up daddy" as I turned into the street where she lived).

During some contact visits my daughter told me of the treats, or trips that had been arranged by her mother and new daddy while she was away and she'd be missing.

My daughter worried about her surname being different than her half sisters.

When my contact with my daughter broke down she'd just returned from a week long trip to Euro Disney with her mother and "new daddy" etc., and behaved differently from the start of the contact visit, (telling me shortly after I picked her up that her mother and new daddy didn't want her to see me). When I returned my daughter home her mother did something she'd never done before, waited in the street outside their home for our arrival, and when my daughter saw her mother waiting she said "don't come again daddy"!). I believe my daughter had been worked upon by her mother and new daddy during the week at Euro Disney, so she would know exactly what was expected of her.

Dismiss all this if you wish as ancient history, not worth repeating and so on, but my mother used to talk of my ex saying she behaved like a "steel hand in a velvet glove", (and my mother quite liked or admired her perhaps, certainly she never fell out with her). In my opinion all my ex's actions were designed to protect her own position in our daughters life, and my daughter loving anyone else other than her, or as much as her, was seen as a direct threat, (my ex. was a very controlling person, and as I may have said before, told our daughter "she knew what our daughter was going to think, say and do, before she did herself"!).

There you go for what its worth, and if you can be bothered to check some of the links I've provided to fathers rights websites you'll learn what happened over my daughter_ and the manipulation she was subjected to is a very familiar picture to them, (whatever would Kahlil Gibran think ).

 

[Leonie]

Aaah, it's often the little things that do the most damage. It's like unravelling a piece of fabric, say a rug. The first couple of threads, we don't even notice. By the time we do notice, there is a tiny little hole, which we repair. Over time other small holes appear which become harder and harder to repair until the fabric becomes threadbare and we realise it can no longer be repaired. Then we either learn to live with it as it is or throw away the rug. It's a tough choice, and sadly not always our own.

 

[Rosemarie]

grahamg, I think when you were told to 'move on', it was meant with the best intentions. You really need to accept that it's history now and what's done is done.

 

[grahamg]

grahamg, I think when you were told to 'move on', it was meant with the best intentions. You really need to accept that it's history now and what's done is done.

I know your words are well meant, and I'll accept them as that, or even agree with you, BUT, (there's always s "but", - sorry joke wearing thin I know), if you read the post immediately prior to your own you'll get an idea why I continue to have a very remote amount of faith in there being some understanding out there. It may one day make a difference to someone else, another decent or " okay" father. Judge Wilson, the former head of the UK family law division in the old Lord Chancellors department, referred to some of us as okay dads, in an address he gave before standing down, (lamenting how many okay dads no longer raised their "own" kids). He used the term "love" in his speech too, one of only six references on the whole of the government website dealing with the family!.

 

[Knight]

Quote from a really long post about what you think took place.

"My daughter hugged me as she got in my car for a contact visit,"

There are reasons for contact visits. It's only one side, to bad your ex doesn't post to explain her side.

 

[Colleen]

Maybe it's just me but I don't understand the point of the OP's original post. There is so much division in families, friends, and the world today that "striking back" doesn't seem logical to me. Why would you do that? No good can come from it.

I've posted in the past about my difficult relationship with my son. He's 45 years old so I have left him alone to live with his decisions. Striking back at his incorrect assumptions about things that happened in his childhood would serve no useful purpose. It would only alienate him more.

I'm guessing I'm missing the whole point of the OP's posting.

We've had a situation in my husband's family this last week that we could have opted to make a big deal (or "strike back") out of not being notified about the death of our brother-in-law, but we chose to let it alone and get on with our lives. That was his sister's decision to keep us out of the loop. So be it.

 

[grahamg]

Maybe it's just me but I don't understand the point of the OP's original post. There is so much division in families, friends, and the world today that "striking back" doesn't seem logical to me. Why would you do that? No good can come from it.
I've posted in the past about my difficult relationship with my son. He's 45 years old so I have left him alone to live with his decisions. Striking back at his incorrect assumptions about things that happened in his childhood would serve no useful purpose. It would only alienate him more.
I'm guessing I'm missing the whole point of the OP's posting.
We've had a situation in my husband's family this last week that we could have opted to make a big deal (or "strike back") out of not being notified about the death of our brother-in-law, but we chose to let it alone and get on with our lives. That was his sister's decision to keep us out of the loop. So be it.

In all truth there is not much sense to my OP I agree, and if there is any at all it is about a change of attitude someone who feels they've been walked all over might try, so as to get on to the front foot psychologically.
If you were to trouble yourself and read all the posts on the thread you will notice some support for the idea you can't ultimately allow yourself to be treated as a doormat, even by your own child.
The rests of the arguments I've engaged in here on the forum before, and it proved equally unproductive, though its an open question whether that's my fault, and I'm wrong, and so many members of fathers rights groups have it all wrong, or the system is flawed. Lawyers believe they are wise to refuse to bend to calls for statuary rights for decent parents in the UK, because they claim the family law system know better what is good for your child than those who love them do, and so many here take the lawyers view too.

 

[grahamg]

Quote from a really long post about what you think took place.
"My daughter hugged me as she got in my car for a contact visit,"
There are reasons for contact visits. It's only one side, to bad your ex doesn't post to explain her side.

Haven't we quit our arguments and I've come to the conclusion my only way forward is to do what Matt O'Connor from Fathers 4 Justice says non resident dads should do, accept unjustifiable comments for the sakes of avoiding protracted arguments, obscuring any goal you might have(?).

 

[AnnieA]

I thought it might assist some people to understand the background to "everything" to put these factors out there for consideration as they must have some bearing I believe, albeit it all happened a long time ago, (and if everyone moved on as advised, I suppose they wouldn't be remembered or repeated).

Whilst my child told me to "keep coming daddy", (and "I hate you, you are horrible", as already covered), these things were also going on:

My daughter hugged me as she got in my car for a contact visit, the contact visits were cut in half on my returning her home, with no explanation given.

My large family each gave my daughter an Easter egg, so she ended up with about seven chocolate Easter eggs to try to eat. She was told I'd eaten her Easter eggs, and was very relieved when she found all seven waiting for her at my home, (a minor incident I know, but bear with me).

My large family gave my daughter birthday and Christmas presents, my daughter refused to take them into her home, when I returned her.

My daughter was clothed in secondhand gear when I picked her up, and on her returning home she was changed and showered so that any smells associated with myself and my parents farm where dispelled, (my ex was a farmers daughter as well doing this).

I bought my daughter expensive party dresses on three occasions, and had a professional photographer take some wonderful shots of her, (this occurred over about four years). She would never wear them again, and I was told they were in a "clothes archive" when they were eventually returned to me, (and I passed them on to my neices who were very pleased to wear them).

If I arrived a few minutes early to collect my child, she never appeared around the front door of her home until the exact time arranged. My daughter worried when I returned her home, for example from a trip to the seaside, that she would not arrive home at exactly the right time, (at one minute to the appointed time she told me to "hurry up daddy" as I turned into the street where she lived).

During some contact visits my daughter told me of the treats, or trips that had been arranged by her mother and new daddy she'd be missing.

My daughter worried about her surname being different than her half sisters.

When my contact with my daughter broke down she'd just returned from a week long trip to Euro Disney with her mother and "new daddy" etc., and behaved differently from the start of the contact visit, (telling me shortly after I picked her up that her mother and new daddy didn't want her to see me). When I returned my daughter home her mother did something she'd never done before, waited in the street outside their home for our arrival, and when my daughter saw her mother waiting she said "don't come again daddy"!). I believe my daughter had been worked upon by her mother and new daddy during the week at Euro Disney, so she would know exactly what was expected of her.

Dismiss all this if you wish as ancient history, not worth repeating and so on, but my mother used to talk of my ex saying she behaved like a "steel hand in a velvet glove", (and my mother quite liked or admired her perhaps, certainly she never fell out with her). In my opinion all my ex's actions were designed to protect her own position in our daughters life, and my daughter loving anyone else other than her, or as much as her, was seen as a direct threat, (my ex. was a very controlling person, and as I may have said before, told our daughter "she knew what our daughter was going to think, say and do, before she did herself"!).

There you go for what its worth, and if you can be bothered to check some of the links I've provided to fathers rights websites you'll learn what happened over my daughter_ and the manipulation she was subjected to is a very familiar picture to them, (whatever would Kahlil Gibran think ).

Your ex sounds like as much of a narcissistic, controlling bitch as my brother's ex is. What's your daughter's relationship with her currently.?

 

[Murrmurr]

I thought it might assist some people to understand the background to "everything" to put these factors out there for consideration as they must have some bearing I believe, albeit it all happened a long time ago, (and if everyone moved on as advised, I suppose they wouldn't be remembered or repeated).

Whilst my child told me to "keep coming daddy", (and "I hate you, you are horrible", as already covered), these things were also going on:

My daughter hugged me as she got in my car for a contact visit, the contact visits were cut in half on my returning her home, with no explanation given.

My large family each gave my daughter an Easter egg, so she ended up with about seven chocolate Easter eggs to try to eat. She was told I'd eaten her Easter eggs, and was very relieved when she found all seven waiting for her at my home, (a minor incident I know, but bear with me).

My large family gave my daughter birthday and Christmas presents, my daughter refused to take them into her home, when I returned her.

My daughter was clothed in secondhand gear when I picked her up, and on her returning home she was changed and showered so that any smells associated with myself and my parents farm where dispelled, (my ex was a farmers daughter as well doing this).

I bought my daughter expensive party dresses on three occasions, and had a professional photographer take some wonderful shots of her, (this occurred over about four years). She would never wear them again, and I was told they were in a "clothes archive" when they were eventually returned to me, (and I passed them on to my neices who were very pleased to wear them).

If I arrived a few minutes early to collect my child, she never appeared around the front door of her home until the exact time arranged. My daughter worried when I returned her home, for example from a trip to the seaside, that she would not arrive home at exactly the right time, (at one minute to the appointed time she told me to "hurry up daddy" as I turned into the street where she lived).

During some contact visits my daughter told me of the treats, or trips that had been arranged by her mother and new daddy she'd be missing.

My daughter worried about her surname being different than her half sisters.

When my contact with my daughter broke down she'd just returned from a week long trip to Euro Disney with her mother and "new daddy" etc., and behaved differently from the start of the contact visit, (telling me shortly after I picked her up that her mother and new daddy didn't want her to see me). When I returned my daughter home her mother did something she'd never done before, waited in the street outside their home for our arrival, and when my daughter saw her mother waiting she said "don't come again daddy"!). I believe my daughter had been worked upon by her mother and new daddy during the week at Euro Disney, so she would know exactly what was expected of her.

Dismiss all this if you wish as ancient history, not worth repeating and so on, but my mother used to talk of my ex saying she behaved like a "steel hand in a velvet glove", (and my mother quite liked or admired her perhaps, certainly she never fell out with her). In my opinion all my ex's actions were designed to protect her own position in our daughters life, and my daughter loving anyone else other than her, or as much as her, was seen as a direct threat, (my ex. was a very controlling person, and as I may have said before, told our daughter "she knew what our daughter was going to think, say and do, before she did herself"!).

There you go for what its worth, and if you can be bothered to check some of the links I've provided to fathers rights websites you'll learn what happened over my daughter_ and the manipulation she was subjected to is a very familiar picture to them, (whatever would Kahlil Gibran think ).

Graham, for me, this post finally spells it out clearly. I haven't kept up very well because, frankly, I don't understand you very well (your writing, that is). No fault on either of us, just is what it is.

Obviously your daughter has been manipulated. Try to imagine the conversation that goes (or went) on in her mother's home between her mother and step-dad, and realize your daughter has had to listen to it before and after every single visit with you. I'll wager that when she said "Don't come again, Daddy" it was because she doesn't (or didn't) want to hear those conversations anymore. I'll wager they are (or were) extremely upsetting for her. And exhausting.

I gather she's an adult now? In which case: She must be tired of the drama; had enough of it (for 3 lifetimes, probably). Keep her out of it now. Shield her from any further drama. And by all means, don't strike back - none of this was her fault, and it's not her responsibility to make you (or her mother) feel better about any of it. Her only responsibility is to try and sort it out so that SHE can feel better, mainly about herself and her life.

It's awful that the courts and father's rights groups and everyone else involved let you down, and therefore let your daughter down as well. I can tell you it happens a LOT. Keep fighting for justice if you want, it's a good cause, I'll go so far as to say it's crucial, but keep your daughter out of it entirely. She's been adversely effected by the whole experience. The effects may always be there, but she needs to put that history to rest as best she can.

 

[Colleen]

If you were to trouble yourself and read all the posts on the thread you will notice some support for the idea you can't ultimately allow yourself to be treated as a doormat, even by your own child.

I allowed the "doormat" treatment for years and punished myself for life decisions that were not mine to make at the time but allowed them to happen so my son blamed me for "abandoning" him...at the age of 23, BTW. I made a new life for myself but I guess he thought I should stay around forever to pay all the bills (he was living with me and I was divorced) when I made $5.50 part-time while he had a good job that paid $17/hour right out of school. This was in 1992-1997. I had lots of work experience but no one wanted to hire an "older" person like me so I took whatever I could get. He was selfish and irresponsible with his money and when I had an accident that totaled my car (I was hit head-on) and had to find my own way to work, he didn't even offer to help me.

This toxic relationship continued for many years. Finally, for my own sanity, I cut off all communications with him. I no longer allow him to treat me disrespectfully or make me feel guilty or use me for a doormat for anything. Sometimes, you just have to let it go.

 

[grahamg]

Your ex sounds like as much of a narcissistic, controlling bitch as my brother's ex is. What's your daughter's relationship with her currently.?

I hope and believe my daughter has a good relationship with her mum, not least because as I did state earlier on this thread, my ex was "the best parent", (she was "caring", my daughter acknowledged that at an early age, though on a slight negative my daughter called her mum " moody"!).
A very odd thing happened once when I telephoned my ex to tell her I wouldn't be seeking "staying access" one summer, (a short four or five days holiday, such as I'd been permitted the year before). My ex chose to confide in me that the two daughters she had with the man from her work she left me for, "were not like our daughter", (I'd have thought my ex would not confide in me at all, so some surprise that, but my daughter was exceptional, of that there was/is no doubt).
There's much more I could say about my ex., right back to before we married, and having known her a few months she told me she wanted my child, (obviously I learnt the hard way that was all she wanted!).

 

[Colleen]

I haven't kept up very well because, frankly, I don't understand you very well (your writing, that is). No fault on either of us, just is what it is.

Me, too. I had a hard time understanding him so I just skimmed through and probably misunderstood the whole thing. He sounds like a very bitter man and maybe should seek counseling for his own sake.

 

[Murrmurr]

Me, too. I had a hard time understanding him so I just skimmed through and probably misunderstood the whole thing.

Kind of hilarious that both sides of the pond speak English but we still have a hard time understanding each other.

 

[grahamg]

Me, too. I had a hard time understanding him so I just skimmed through and probably misunderstood the whole thing. He sounds like a very bitter man and maybe should seek counseling for his own sake.

"Stop talking about me as though I'm not here you pair, honestly"!!
(actually its been said so often before you must be right, and my then wife used to say I spoke in riddles! ).

 

[AnnieA]

I hope and believe my daughter has a good relationship with her mum, not least because as I did state earlier on this thread, my ex was "the best parent", (she was "caring", my daughter acknowledged that at an early age, though on a slight negative my daughter called her mum " moody"!).

Playing the kind of head games with a child that you described in post 127 was NOT caring. She engaged in deliberate parental alienation and that is emotional abuse.

 

[Elsie]

I believe that respect is earned,

An odd thread title for a relationship thread, BUT, (there's always a but! ), if your experience in whatever relationship it might be, is one of being ignored or shunned, and as far as I'm aware being treated in that way denies you the interaction all human beings need, ("No man is an island" I was told at school, and all that stuff, was it said by John Dunne?), then we're being denied life aren't we(?).

We're now in an age where we can spout our views to folks across the world with ease, (as we've been able to do for maybe twenty years or so), and yet at the same time so many seem to have difficulties in interpersonal relationships, maybe more so than in previous generations, so what if anything may be done about it we might agree upon?

Here is my idea, for those of you totally shunned in circumstances where you feel you couldn't have done much differently in the past, leading to your becoming shunned and estranged, my idea is to find a way to "strike back"!!!!!

You don't think you wish to strike back against someone you love, (or should live, like maybe your own child), but if all trying to behave as though you'll always be there for them gets you disrespect, being shunned more completely, what then can you do, carry on failing as you have for over twenty years, or try something else?

Folks here on the forum don't seem to agree with the idea of calling for respecting elders, and giving legal rights to decent parents sometimes beyond the child's interests, so that ideas out as a way of "striking back", so what's left?

All I can think of is returning the negative behaviour shown towards you to your own child, so that in that way they get some idea what being shunned feels like, (should you live long enough for the opportunity to shun them appear, when they condescendingly allow you a modicum of attention).

Sorry, that's the best I can come up with, strike back at those denying your humanity, and try to assist others similarly shunned.

Being unjustifiably shunned would anger me, but “striking back” at the shunner might (mistakenly) give them the idea they have a legitimate reason for doing shunning me.

Letting a child know you’ll always be there for them (whenever you possibly can), and they disrespectfully show they don’t believe you, let go your hurt, hang in there) because in time they probably will turn to you for help with whatever because they know you are an honorable man.

I respected my parents (mother and step-father) for providing my basic needs, but I did not respect them for verbally tearing away at my self-esteem. My mother never said a bad word to me about my biological father. (I had wanted to know him, but for years he was an alcoholic who never came into my life, until he’d been sober for 12 years when I was 21 & he visited me. We got along fine. I never brought up his not being around as I grew up. That was in the past, I was just happy to meet my biological father.

Thank goodness (my mother) and the woman he was married to had no objection to his getting to meet with me (and my sister).

 

[Murrmurr]

Playing the kind of head games with a child that you described in post 127 was NOT caring. She engaged in deliberate parental alienation and that is emotional abuse.

I agree. And that type of abuse is next to impossible to prove, which is why family court lawyers don't even want to hear about it.

 

[grahamg]

Playing the kind of head games with a child that you described in post 127 was NOT caring. She engaged in deliberate parental alienation and that is emotional abuse.

I'm afraid you're jumping to too many conclusions, (again).

When I said my ex was the better parent I meant it, and I told her she was the better parent shortly after she left me. My own father, who believe you me, wanted to hold a grudge against my ex, and even extended it to include my daughter for a while, (but couldn't keep it up). My dads farming mates told him it was better that my ex was raising my child, and this caused him to moderate his views, and then after my contact with my daughter ceased, my father behaved reasonably towards my ex.
At the start of the difficulties I had over contact my ex tried telling a court welfare officer how much our daughter hated me, and how she had to force our child to come with her dad on a contact visit, but the experienced court welfare officer had heard it all before, took absolutely no notice, and lectured my ex to permit contact, (all under previous legislation where dads were maybe more strongly supported).

So no, no use pathologising what happened so far as my daughter goes, I won't have it, obviously my ex won't, and my daughter has come through it all too well, regardless of anything else.

 

[Jules]

OP, I still can‘t fathom what you expect to happen if you strike back at your daughter.

It’s been 25 years since you had regular parental contact. She’s 37, a very well-educated doctor and obviously can make up her own mind.

You can’t go back and redo history. Maybe it wasn’t fair. Life isn’t always fair. What do expect should happen?

 

[AnnieA]

I'm afraid you're jumping to too many conclusions, (again).

When I said my ex was the better parent I meant it, and I told her she was the better parent shortly after she left me. My own father, who believe you me, wanted to hold a grudge against my ex, and even extended it to include my daughter for a while, (but couldn't keep it up). My dads farming mates told him it was better that my ex was raising my child, and this caused him to moderate his views, and then after my contact with my daughter ceased, my father behaved reasonably towards my ex.
At the start of the difficulties I had over contact my ex tried telling a court welfare officer how much our daughter hated me, and how she had to force our child to come with her dad on a contact visit, but the experienced court welfare officer had heard it all before, took absolutely no notice, and lectured my ex to permit contact, (all under previous legislation where dads were maybe more strongly supported).

So no, no use pathologising what happened so far as my daughter goes, I won't have it, obviously my ex won't, and my daughter has come through it all too well, regardless of anything else.

Post 127 details classic parental alienation which is emotional child abuse. That's not jumping to a conclusion; it has been recognized in child psychology for years.

I'm interested in why you deny that...

 

[grahamg]

OP, I still can‘t fathom what you expect to happen if you strike back at your daughter.
It’s been 25 years since you had regular parental contact. She’s 37, a very well-educated doctor and obviously can make up her own mind.
You can’t go back and redo history. Maybe it wasn’t fair. Life isn’t always fair. What do expect should happen?

"Life isn't fair", BUT, (there's always a but!), do you think the law, and those administering it should be fair though? My point number one!

Point two, yes very well educated daughter, yes very capable of making up her own mind though/whilst I myself at the same age wasn't so much able to make up my mind, or at least force my mind to stop loving my ex., even twp years on after she left me, (fortunately I was able by then to love someone else as much, and that was a milestone!).
My daughters relationship with her mother is different, though those experts examining situations like this one suggest its when the source of the problem disappears, things change, (I once spoke to a lady similarly estranged from her father, who came around, or changed her attitude towards her father just as described she said).

I must accept my daughter is very like her mother, and has steel inside her, so any pride I might feel in her achievements and many personal qualities, I have to try to appreciate treating me like a pariah, deceiving me somewhat, " rubbing my nose in it" to an extent, all these things are part of the package. A female friend reading a letter my daughter sent to me twenty or so years ago, (as a teenager), had a point who told me I "hadn't got a daughter", so shocked was she by reading my daughter declare I "ruined the first twelve years of her life").

 

[grahamg]

Post 127 details classic parental alienation which is emotional child abuse. That's not jumping to a conclusion; it has been recognized in child psychology for years.
I'm interested in why you deny that...

I'm interested in why you're unable to accept anyone telling you their daughter does not suffer from an illness, and it is the family law system that is at fault nowadays.
If my daughter was ill, or ever showed symptoms of any illness/abuse I would have known, or I feel I would, because she would have lost confidence and become withdrawn in my view, if she had a problem.
She was always open, confident/bossy, friendly and made friends easily, smart, up to the minute, a deep thinker, and she was very sweet according to my own mother, with whom she had a very positive relationship, (even when mums health waivered, or she exhibited paranoia this didn't phase my daughter or stop the relationship).

To finish my comments, your propensity to believe what you want, and not accept or respect the views of a parent, who at the very least witnessed what went on, says a lot to me, (and you're not alone, and there is the rub!).

 

[AnnieA]

I'm interested in why you're unable to accept anyone telling you their daughter does not suffer from an illness, and it is the family law system that is at fault nowadays.
If my daughter was ill, or ever showed symptoms of any illness/abuse I would have known, or I feel I would, because she would have lost confidence and become withdrawn in my view, if she had a problem.
She was always open, confident/bossy, friendly and made friends easily, smart, up to the minute, a deep thinker, and she was very sweet according to my own mother, with whom she had a very positive relationship, (even when mums health waivered, or she exhibited paranoia this didn't phase my daughter or stop the relationship).

To finish my comments, your propensity to believe what you want, and not accept or respect the views of a parent, who at the very least witnessed what went on, says a lot to me, (and you're not alone, and there is the rub!).

How does 'illness' come into it?