Alligatorob
SF VIP
I think you are right, why not start one? It seems a timely and important issue.
Supreme Court overturning Roe v Wade?
- Thread starter Sunny
- Start date
I have an old eugenics book that makes a case for teaching women birth control so they will be willing to have sex with their husbands and stop sending them to prostitutes where disease is a serious problem. I thought that was an interesting point of view and was horrified that in many places it was against the law to teach birth control methods.
I was a virgin until marriage because I was raised by a single mom. My parents were divorced and when my mother moved us to Hollywood, California, my father did not have to pay child support. I learned poverty is constant insecurity. We were lucky that Hollywood, California had a daycare center for children that charged on a sliding scale. It is cruel and insane to deny women abortions and at the same time deny them assistance. If there is no abortion option, there is no sexual freedom.
How about a law that makes it a crime for a man to get a woman pregnant without marriage with guaranteed incarceration? That would kind of equalize the risk and make being sexual as dangerous for men as it is for women.
Em in Ohio
Senior Member
- Location
- OH HI OH
As I said elsewhere in this thread, I think overturning Roe vs Wade is a terrible idea. I have also put forth in this thread the idea of mandatory abortions/sterilizations for both women and men. In my mind, it is a matter of situational ethics. I respect a woman's right to choose. That being said, some 45 years ago I knew a woman who was pregnant with her seventh child under the age of 8. She admitted to me that for each child, she was given a substantial increase in her government welfare check. The first six children received poor care, little supervision, displayed serious emotional problems, and the four youngest in diapers had horrible diaper rashes spreading towards their knees. I ended up reporting her for child neglect. As far as I know, nothing came of it. Jump forward to the year 2020 and learn of a man who has impregnated five different women at the same time. (I knew the mothers of two of them). The vasectomy wasn't what I really thought this punk deserved. There you have the basis of my diverse opinions on the same subject. Rocks expected.
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
- Location
- Los Angeles Suburbs
Financial incentives for having numerous children have mostly been removed, thank goodness.
They should just change everything to say 'women' instead of 'men' and let the guys feel what it is like to just be an uncertain assumption.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
So far as I can see the Constitution does not contain either the word men or man. It says people and persons. Did not see the words women or woman either.
https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/full-text
ElCastor
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern CA
How many centuries? Our Constitution should stand until it is amended in part or in whole.
"The authority to amend the Constitution of the United States is derived from Article V of the Constitution." ...
"The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures. None of the 27 amendments to the Constitution have been proposed by constitutional convention. The Congress proposes an amendment in the form of a joint resolution. Since the President does not have a constitutional role in the amendment process, the joint resolution does not go to the White House for signature or approval." Etc. https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution
OK with you? And by the way, if you have an example of a shining pinnacle of democracy that you believe would be a superior replacement for our current form of old white man government, please share.
ElCastor
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern CA
The US Constitution applies to ALL CITIZENS, and in some cases to resident aliens -- PERIOD!
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
- Location
- Los Angeles Suburbs
True. It didn't need to because sexism was so endemic and pervasive that it didn't dawn on them to specifically exclude women from enjoying many of the same rights as men.
Cripes, it wasn't until 1974 that women could obtain credit without a male cosigner. My father had to co-sign my first credit card application but not my brother's. Both of us were single, over 21, and gainfully employed with more than adequate income to qualify.
The 14th Amendment (post Civil War citizenship amendment) does specify "male" citizens and inhabitants.
Women were not legally granted federal voting rights in the US until 1919 so they went without representation from 1776 -1919.
Last edited:
You are probably right ..... not all keep chugging along though ....
i KNOW a few and they are haunted by what ifs and other thoughts.....they know how old would that person be now / what would they look like
one person because a poorly done at one at the biggest provider of services ........... could never have a child again..
so many options long term ones as well in birth control are downplayed .... girls/ women want to complain about side effects and such but no one seems to talk about those who did not find the Abortion as the happy liberating experience some women have said it was for them
no one responds to the situation the SAME way and i find it insulting that so many think everyone Celebrates that decision .... simply put some do not .....
David777
Well-known Member
- Location
- Silicon Valley
Abortion and gender politics are 2 controversial areas I purposely remain relatively ignorant about and do not advocate any positions including the Roe vs Wade issue. What I am critical about are cultural attitudes of many with little self control that have unprotected sex that drives both abortions and sexually transmitted diseases, especially those of many men that behave like it isn't their responsibility with many annoyed if a woman brings up the matter during the heat of passion. Saw a stat that a jaw dropping 67% of college age women didn't have protection the last time they had sex.
https://web.archive.org/web/2008031...ttmacher.org/in-the-know/characteristics.html
snippet:
What racial or ethnic group has the highest abortion rate?
The overall abortion rate is 21 per 1,000 U.S. women (i.e., each year 2.1% of all women of reproductive age have an abortion). Black and Hispanic women have higher abortion rates than non-Hispanic white women do. (The rates are 49 per 1,000 and 33 per 1,000 among black and Hispanic women, respectively, vs. 13 per 1,000 among non-Hispanic white women. Black and Hispanic women have higher abortion rates primarily because they have higher rates of unintended pregnancy.
What are the trends in the characteristics of women having abortions?
Over time, women having abortions have become increasingly likely to be poor, nonwhite and unmarried, and to already have one or more children.
Why do women have abortions?
Most U.S. women cite more than one factor contributing to their decision to have an abortion: Almost three-quarters say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about three-quarters say they cannot afford to have a child; and almost half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.
https://web.archive.org/web/2008031...ttmacher.org/in-the-know/characteristics.html
snippet:
What racial or ethnic group has the highest abortion rate?
The overall abortion rate is 21 per 1,000 U.S. women (i.e., each year 2.1% of all women of reproductive age have an abortion). Black and Hispanic women have higher abortion rates than non-Hispanic white women do. (The rates are 49 per 1,000 and 33 per 1,000 among black and Hispanic women, respectively, vs. 13 per 1,000 among non-Hispanic white women. Black and Hispanic women have higher abortion rates primarily because they have higher rates of unintended pregnancy.
What are the trends in the characteristics of women having abortions?
Over time, women having abortions have become increasingly likely to be poor, nonwhite and unmarried, and to already have one or more children.
Why do women have abortions?
Most U.S. women cite more than one factor contributing to their decision to have an abortion: Almost three-quarters say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about three-quarters say they cannot afford to have a child; and almost half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
- Location
- Los Angeles Suburbs
Of course there are some who regret the decision, but the vast majority apparently do not. I was referring to those who don't as women whose lives keep chugging along.
I don't know a single person who'd characterize an abortion as a "happy liberating experience." Most women who've had an abortion consider it to be the least terrible of the options that were in front of them.
Agreed that birth control medications and devices are far from perfect. Unpleasant side effects are widely known and well documented.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
Actually I think it did both providing rights to women and denying. However knowing that giving women equal rights would not lead to general acceptance of the Constitution the founding fathers chose to use the more gender neutral terms persons and people.
That left the door open to legislative changes down the road giving women more rights without the need to amend the Constitution. Far from a fair solution, but probably the best that could have been expected in that day and age.
Same can be said for slavery, the Constitution is also mostly silent on it too.
Em in Ohio
Senior Member
- Location
- OH HI OH
"No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen. "
"Passed by Congress June 4, 1919, and ratified on August 18, 1920, the 19th amendment granted women the right to vote. The 19th amendment legally guarantees American women the right to vote. Achieving this milestone required a lengthy and difficult struggle—victory took decades of agitation and protest." (https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/19th-amendment#:~:text=Passed by Congress June 4,decades of agitation and protest.)
"Even before women could vote, women ran for elected office—including president. Almost 50 years before the 19th Amendment was ratified, stockbroker and newspaper publisher Victoria Woodhull became the first woman to run for president in 1872 under the Equal Rights Party ticket. Despite questions about their eligibility to vote, she reasoned women could still could run for political office. A lawyer who was the first woman to argue before the U.S. Supreme Court, Belva Lockwood followed shortly in 1884, endorsing equal rights, temperance, civil service reform, and citizenship for Native Americans. Lockwood’s name was the first to be printed on a presidential ballot, and she won around 4,000 votes—an astounding figure when we consider that Lockwood herself could not even vote." https://www.nyhistory.org/blogs/a-brief-history-of-women-running-for-political-office
Abortion has many more aspects then what is always brought up...
Birth control is only effective when taken or used properly and many simply Do NOT .... or insert excuse of why they do not use correctly
plenty of long term implants up to 5 years and can be removed ....
MANY posts in this thread suggest males have surgery............ that may or may not be reversible.......... but not much talk promoting of long term reversible female options .
as for the characterization of being a happy liberating thing that was what an actress ( think her name is Busy Phillips) said regarding her experience
and a large group often compares this procedure with a ........"simple teeth cleaning.
That statement IMO clearly signals that many do not look at the situation as a whole ....
where do you get stats that show the vast majority ?
because of the few women (5) that i know i have found my small sampling shared a completely opposite experience ...
just an aspect i see often NOT discussed.
as stated in your #336 post MOST do not share or talk about it ........ if you ever do get a discussion going the reality is NOT what media portrays .....
SeniorBen
Senior Member
When the Constitution was written, married women were considered to be the property of their husbands', it was legal to own slaves, evolution was not yet proven or accepted widely as fact. It was wise for our Founding Fathers to not include those things in our Constitution (except for the slavery thing). But to look to the original intentions when the Constitution was written, while that works most of the time, in some cases, we need to look at the context.
Two things our Founders got right that apply in abortion rights:
- The 1st Amendment, which put up a wall between Church and State
- The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides a "right to privacy"
The 14th Amendment keeps abortion between a woman and her doctor, so that makes anti-abortion laws unConstitutional.
The argument that a fetus is a person is purely subjective and generally based on religion, so that's out as an anti-abortion argument.
That's my perspective, anyway. Anybody feel free to offer counter arguments.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
Thanks Em, good find. After you posted I searched and found the word "he" occurs 25 times in the Constitution, in similar contexts.
I am however thinking that the pronoun "he" has been interpreted as covering both men and women. I don't know of an amendment that alters or reverses those words and a lot of women have been elected Senators, to Congress, and now a Vice President. The 19th amendment only gives women the right to vote, not hold office.
I think it is "man" as in mankind that covers both; not he @Alligatorob
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
We have a similar constitution to US but our method of amendment is different. A question is put directly to the people in the form "Do you approve of an amendment of the constitution to..." The intention of the amendment and the wording is circulated. The question is put to a vote at the same time as we are voting for a federal election. Since voting is mandatory everyone gets a say about the amendment. It is a Yes/No question.
For the amendment to pass requires a majority vote overall plus a majority vote in a majority of states - in our case that means 4 out of 6 states. Once that standard is met, the amendment passes. If not, the constitution remains as is.
This is about as democratic as you can get. The next amendment we will be asked to vote on with be the question of becoming a republic, most likely after the Queen dies. This is a big one to consider and one that the people should decide, not the politicians.
Lewkat
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey, USA
Since the Constitution never mentions abortion nor the right to privacy, I think it would be wise to eliminate this Roe vs. Wade matter entirely and leave it up to the woman and her doctor. A woman I know who had an abortion, wrestled with her conscience to the point of madness. She consulted her clergyman who of course denounced even so much as one word about it. She talked to someone in law enforcement who nearly frightened her to death. Her husband turned a deaf ear to it all. A wise psychologist colleague heard about this and convinced her to discuss it solely with her physician from that point on. She finally did go ahead with it, but was tortured with the thoughts of mortal sin ever after. Now, no woman should have to go through all this. Thus, with no original law regarding the issue, from here on out, simply speak with your physician as to what course of action to follow. There are many ramifications involved in such decision making and sometimes it is a necessity to have the procedure even if the woman is reluctant to do so. A professional medical doctor is the one who can lay out all the pros and cons and allow a patient to follow the guidelines. There doesn't have to be a national or even a local law for everything. Just medical reasons, psychological and good common sense.
Today's Statutory Construction is, he also means she.
...words importing the masculine gender include the feminine as well...
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/1
Em in Ohio
Senior Member
- Location
- OH HI OH
This is irrelevant to the conversation and just a more recent interpretation to calm dissent from the other 50-plus percent of the population who were negligently (and intentionally) disregarded from the start. "He" "him" "his" meant "male."