In your opinion the Bible

My memories of Missouri Synod Lutheran was being preached at consistantly from the pulpit what miserable loathsome unworthy sinners we all are and that God knows what is in our hearts.. What message other than fear and punishment were we to take away?
 

Lon, I would say that that credo is anything but 'free'.
Compare it with this vision statement for my congregation.
It was developed locally by the church attenders around 1999.
We don't bother with creeds because we all have different beliefs and don't impose uniformity.

OUR VISION

CHURCH FAMILY
We value unity.
We value every member of our congregation from the youngest to oldest and covenant to listen to their views and be open to their ideas. In this way we believe we become open to God’s Spirit.
We value diversity of Christian opinion in an open and trusting context and we value our relationship with the other churches in our district.

FAITH
Our faith is summed up in the words “Jesus Christ is the risen Lord”
We believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that growth as individuals and as a church will occur through continued honest, open study of his word.
We hold dear the sacraments as practised by the Uniting Church.

UNITING CHURCH
Revesby Congregation is part of the Uniting Church in Australia. Whilst we as a people of God have individual concerns over some decisions made by Synod and Assembly, we choose to remain “Uniting” and to work within the fellowship afforded by this structure to bring the Kingdom of God to each other, our community and our world.

VISION
We believe God has called us all to be here at Revesby Uniting Church.
We believe we have a unique mission here at Revesby of which every person is a part.
We believe our identity and mission as a people of God will continue to grow and change and we open ourselves to this process of growth and change through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

MINISTRY
We believe that we as a congregation must ultimately take responsibility for our growth and development as a people of God. The Ministers’ role is to assist us through guidance and leadership in this process.

Mission Priorities
Revesby congregation has selected the following mission goals
Youth Groups
Families of children at the Child Care Centre
Pastoral Care
People on the fringe of Revesby Uniting Church​

With God’s help we hope to work together to be Christ’s servants in these mission fields.
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Dame Warrigal,
I hope not to offend. I see in your church's "vision" a hope for a slow transition into a loving community of human beings providing compassionate support for each while slowly phasing out the worship of supernatural beings and the desperate pursuit of the unlikely goal of immortality. I remember very well, the wonderful feeling of community when attending church long ago. For me, the most important part of the service were the announcements of people"s marriages, births, deaths, etc.
We all knew and cared about each others lives. Its a good start.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Lon, I would say that that credo is anything but 'free'.
Compare it with this vision statement for my congregation.
It was developed locally by the church attenders around 1999.
We don't bother with creeds because we all have different beliefs and don't impose uniformity.
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Your congregational vision statement is certainly more mild, but not one that could ascribe to.
 
In my opinion, the Bible, the old testament at least, is an amalgam of tales, legends and apocrypha collected from many sources and times, translated through several languages and in some places self-contradictory and logically inconsistant. Parts of it offer good advice for living and parts of it are so violent that it is hard to believe it can be considered as being the word (and works) of any benevolent higher being. I think that much of it is allegorical and certainly cannot be treated as absolute 'truth'.
 
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SeaBreeze said:
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I'm not comfortable*** with this comment because I have read many fairy tales, and not just the Walt Disney versions either, and have studied the Bible and they are not the same thing at all. People who confuse them have probably not done a lot reading of either.


*** Not having a go at you SB. This equivalence is often put forward but even at a merely literary level, it is a false equivalence. It's also rather glib.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
I'm not comfortable*** with this comment because I have read many fairy tales, and not just the Walt Disney versions either, and have studied the Bible and they are not the same thing at all. People who confuse them have probably not done a lot reading of either.


*** Not having a go at you SB. This equivalence is often put forward but even at a merely literary level, it is a false equivalence. It's also rather glib.
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I think a much better word for the stories in the Bible are "Fables" and of course "parables" But still only serving to teach a point... not to be taken literally.

from wiki

Fable
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is a literary genre: a succinct fictional story, in prose or verse, that features animals, mythical creatures, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature that are anthropomorphized (given human qualities, such as verbal communication) and that illustrates or leads to an interpretation of a moral lesson (a "moral"), which may at the end be added explicitly as a pithy maxim.
A fable differs from a parable in that the latter excludes animals, plants, inanimate objects, and forces of nature as actors that assume speech or other powers of humankind.
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In the end, I am content to leave theology in the hands of the theologians, who with all due respect often seem more obsessed with how many angels dance on the head of a pin, than any message of a loving God. In all fairness, I have also found this same arrogance among some atheists. What seems relevant to me is how to live my life. If I can find a personal map that encourages me to live authentically, with my heart open, embracing tolerance and compassion, and hopefully touching the lives of others in a positive way, that is enough. Love is a verb, something you do, without it, my life is meaningless, regardless of whatever religious/spiritual/atheist viewpoint I might espouse. With it, the rewards are priceless.
 
As an ex-Christian, I think the Bible has lots of good lessons for us today. All the bits about loving one another, not judging each other, reaching out a helping hand and refusing to get drawn into acts of revenge......all good stuff. The problem is all the contradictory bits, like 'let's judge homosexuals', 'wipe out those who aren't like us' 'don't cast your pearls before swine'.....all judgements that negate the good and encourage us to cause great suffering.

Currently my understanding runs along the line of there is a higher power, an organizing intelligence, an Other, a Source of all and I do believe that that Organizing Intelligence can inspire us both collectively and individually and has happened in Biblical times as well as current times. For example, as I have explained (maybe whined about is a better turn of phrase :rolleyes:) my mother and I have a difficult relationship. One day after a particularly rough telephone chat, I was feeling sorry for myself, yearning for the day when she would not be an issue in my life (and keep that between you and me) and suddenly I became aware of another different perspective on the issue. That the grating, difficult human being who is my mom, was absolutely necessary for me to become the person that I am. To learn the lessons that I have (patience with my children, let them find their own way as I support them emotionally, to not try and control who they are, to buy black socks instead of white ones and then NOT force them to scrub them by hand before throwing them in the washing machine.....) She's been like a sanding block that is helping to remove some of my rough edges as I see what to do and what not to do from her example.

I believe that was inspired by the Organizing Power because it over-rode my own human pity party and dislike with a new understanding of how important my mom was to my development to where I am today. It was a thought that provided benefit to both her and I and therefore I believe it was inspired/inspirational.

The problem with the Biblical perspective is, it has also included, along with the 'inspired parts' that are good, the human condition which is comprised of not only random good impulses but our fears which translate into evil too often. Otherwise, how can you explain the apparent and obvious contradictions. How can you have a God who loves everyone because He is our Father Creator and also a 'jealous God who will fry you if you don't comply with His rules where we've been given (free will)' to make that very choice? Was it really 'God' who inspired those thoughts/writings or is that the humanity of us, creeping in and becoming accepted because it not only accepts but encourages our most base instincts which by the way, is what we are supposed to be overcoming or evolving away from.

I think I can easily say that I started becoming an 'ex-' when I was finally willing to face those contradictions and doing so freed me to begin opening up to become more like the 'heart of God'.
 
Georgia Lady said:
I make my own interpretations of the Bible through prayer and reaching out to God. It says in the Bible to not listen to false prophets.
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So what do you do with the negative stuff? Just curious and if you don't want to answer that's okay. But I remember when I was a Christian my method was to simply ignore it or to try and figure out how to justify it/them through the lens of human understandings. Like how can a God who created every human, who weeps if even a sparrow falls, tell His followers to go in and commit genocide ---an example in modern times would be like the thinking about the Asian Carp which are taking over the lakes of North America, if you let one live, it will start the evil all over again.......and so it must be okay to wipe them all out. And after I justified these kinds of 'commands of God' with that last thought, it became easy to ignore it after that and reapply that thinking to other instances and other contradictions.
 
I think this is what drives so many away from Christianity... It's the negative and sometimes violent messages put out there as the "Word of God". As you pointed so eloquently Debby, so much of it is contradictory.. God loves us like a father, yet would condemn us to horrible anguish and suffering.. WHAT kind of "Father" would do that? Child abusers... that's what kind.. there is no comfort in believing in a God like that.. and this is what turns so many people away from organized religious and toward kinder and more nurturing beliefs. I've never been able to find a way to ignore the negative aspects.
 
Georgia Lady said:
I make my own interpretations of the Bible through prayer and reaching out to God. It says in the Bible to not listen to false prophets.
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Georgia Lady, How do you know who is a false prophet? How do you know that the person who wrote that was not one?
I often read comments stating that when Satan comes "He will deceive you by his good works". By that instruction, every person who does a good deed becomes suspect of being evil. It seems rather hard to make the world a better, happier place using those guide lines.
Just my own thoughts.
 
Underock, it is foolish to think that a single verse is the end all and be all that you can rely on.

How do you pick a conman in general? It's a combination of instinct and experience.
Same applies to sussing out a "false prophet". I've seen quite a few tele evangelists that I would label as false proclaimers of the gospel because of their self indulgent lifestyles. I guess I'm saying that what comes out of their mouths is incongruous with their actions and lived values.

However, many people do listen to them.
 
Georgia Lady said:
I make my own interpretations of the Bible through prayer and reaching out to God. It says in the Bible to not listen to false prophets.
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Of course the bible say not to listen to "false prophets". They were thinking when they wrote their "control document" about some who would inevitably begin to question their "operation". Didn't want any free thinkers, just the sheep they already had rounded up. I hope not to offend but frankly the bible offends me. My normal mode is do your own thing with religion and I'll do mine.
 
They were thinking when they wrote their "control document" about some who would inevitably begin to question their "operation". Didn't want any free thinkers, just the sheep they already had rounded up.
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????? "They" ??? This sounds like you think that the scriptures were written down with deliberate intention to deceive by a powerful elite. Most of the books are actually quite critical of the powerful sections of society. Kings and religious leaders do not escape criticism and condemnation. The disciples of Jesus are often depicted as being a bit thick. If I was making it all up to manipulate people I think I would do it quite differently.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
????? "They" ??? This sounds like you think that the scriptures were written down with deliberate intention to deceive by a powerful elite. Most of the books are actually quite critical of the powerful sections of society. Kings and religious leaders do not escape criticism and condemnation. The disciples of Jesus are often depicted as being a bit thick. If I was making it all up to manipulate people I think I would do it quite differently.
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DM, I DO think exactly that. Now, each of us over the years have made up our own minds about the disciples but I believe they were part of a conspiracy with other like minded people to control the population. It's not a new idea now, but it probably was then. I am sure they felt threatened by non believers and felt the need to reflect the rules of how they should live in order to achieve the prospect of heaven. As I said, I have no quarrel with anyone about THEIR belief but I demand the right to mine. Nothing I have said should have any affect on our relationship as I assure you and others I am in no way concerned with other opinions.
 
I am sure they felt threatened by non believers and felt the need to reflect the rules of how they should live in order to achieve the prospect of heaven
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Would those non believers be the Romans who were intent on wiping out a new sect of Judaism? I'd feel threatened under those circumstances and I'm not sure that even the most charismatic preacher would have been able to convince me that heaven later would be worth martyrdom in the arena right now.

One of the greatest mysteries to my mind is the endurance of the Christian message beyond the death of a Jewish rabbi from Nazareth. What were the odds back then? Mind control can only do so much. Do you really believe that a book of stories is more powerful than persecution, torture and death? If it is, then the authors of the stories are truly literary geniuses.
 

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