Hezbollah pagers(not cell phones) explode after an apparent Israeli hack

Debrah N. said:
Just to clarify, they were given that state by Britain. And naturally, the indigenous residents of that country fought back because they didn't want to lose their homes. Not that hard to understand. But that also doesn't change the fact that for the past 70 years, the Israeli's have been making the lives of Palestinian people a complete nightmare and that the world has turned it's face from even as we harp on China for oppressing the Uigher's or decry the bloodshed in Uganda or Rwanda or S. Africa, or castigate Russia for attacking Georgia, S. Ossetia, and now Ukraine. The West reeks of hypocrisy on this.
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I've said it already and I'll say it again until I'm blue in the face... they had no right to attack kidnap , rape and kill innocent children at a music concert... completely out of the blue, there had been no recent conflict between the 2 countries...

Israel had every right to seek revenge.. who wouldn't...what parent wouldn't? ...
 

Debrah N. said:
I read what came out of Haeretz, Jewish human rights groups, the UN, some history books and the book, Peace Not Apartheid, that your president, Jimmy Carter wrote after he spent several years working to bring the two sides together. And I listened to outspoken Jewish Israeli individuals like Miko Peled (The General's Son) and Dr. Norman Finklestein. My conclusions are based on the words and writings of Jewish and American people who've worked diligently to bring the truth to the world. So this Jewish 'military' person who is trying to distract and dissuade people from listening to the soldiers who served in the IDF and who are ashamed of what they did, means very little due to his own obvious bias.
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Spelled Haaretz and Finkelstein.

Haaretz is the most liberal news organization in Israel and always takes the Palestinian side in conflicts. Its editorials are consistently anti-Israel. Finkelstein is a militant anti-Israel propagandist.
 
HermitHogan said:
Spelled Haaretz and Finkelstein.

Haaretz is the most liberal news organization in Israel and always takes the Palestinian side in conflicts. Its editorials are consistently anti-Israel. Finkelstein is a militant anti-Israel propagandist.
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Agreed. Here in Toronto there is a far leftist group called "Jews for Palestine " that is all ways side by side with the Palestinian supporters at the almost daily demonstrations. Self hating Jews ?
 

jimintoronto said:
Agreed. Here in Toronto there is a far leftist group called "Jews for Palestine " that is all ways side by side with the Palestinian supporters at the almost daily demonstrations. Self hating Jews ?
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Jews for Jesus had no Jews in it. Maybe the same is true of Jews for Palestine.
 
hollydolly said:
I've said it already and I'll say it again until I'm blue in the face... they had no right to attack kidnap , rape and kill innocent children at a music concert... completely out of the blue, there had been no recent conflict between the 2 countries...

Israel had every right to seek revenge.. who wouldn't...what parent wouldn't? ...
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In isolation, yes. In reality................. no. Frankly, it's ignorant to think this happened in isolation, and that the deaths of civilians is justified. You can't accept the death of Palestinian citizens, and justify it with the death of Israeli citizens. Wrong, is wrong.
 
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Debrah N. said:
Just to clarify, they were given that state by Britain. And naturally, the indigenous residents of that country fought back because they didn't want to lose their homes. Not that hard to understand. But that also doesn't change the fact that for the past 70 years, the Israeli's have been making the lives of Palestinian people a complete nightmare and that the world has turned it's face from even as we harp on China for oppressing the Uigher's or decry the bloodshed in Uganda or Rwanda or S. Africa, or castigate Russia for attacking Georgia, S. Ossetia, and now Ukraine. The West reeks of hypocrisy on this.
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The League of Nations was consulted and majority agreed.

At the time, most of the western portion of Israel was desert and sparsely populated. The Israeli gov't didn't ask any of the people who already lived in Israel to leave. They included Muslims, Christians, Islamists, and Jews. With funding from the Israeli gov't, those who stayed, which was nearly all of them, and the new Israeli citizens who made their homes there, helped transform that western portion into productive farmland and built new roads and infrastructure. Many of the descendants of the Muslim, Christian, Islamist families who originally lived there, still live there.

I've debated with you about this before, but you refuse to acknowledge historic and current facts, so I'm not going to waste any more of my time.
 
Murrmurr said:
Conflict is 100% UNavoidable as long as there are people whose primary objective in life is to eliminate every Jew, everywhere.
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Disagree. There are people who want to destroy our life in the western world, but we don't continually go to war about it. If what you've written is accurate, then it's inevitable war for the remainder of humanity. The horror of the concentration camps must not be repeated, by either side.
 
VaughanJB said:
Disagree. There are people who want to destroy our life in the western world, but we don't continually go to war about it. If what you've written is accurate, then it's inevitable war for the remainder of humanity. The horror of the concentration camps must not be repeated, by either side.
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They don't live on 3 sides of us, JB! Or on the same continent.

And, actually, we're at war with them 24/7, they're just not guns and bombs wars.
 
Murrmurr said:
They don't live on 3 sides of us, JB! Or on the same continent.

And, actually, we're at war with them 24/7, they're just not guns and bombs wars.
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Let's not go there. The history is very important in this case. Not to mention, Americans have a very different opinion to Europeans generally, and I really really don't want to go there. Point is, we're all vulnerable, there is no world peace. The Israeli situation goes back decades, and some want to act as though that wasn't the case when reacting to recent events.

Again, I really would rather not go there and leave it at that. Hope you don't mind.
 
Murrmurr said:
The League of Nations was consulted and majority agreed.

At the time, most of the western portion of Israel was desert and sparsely populated. The Israeli gov't didn't ask any of the people who already lived in Israel to leave. They included Muslims, Christians, Islamists, and Jews. With funding from the Israeli gov't, those who stayed, which was nearly all of them, and the new Israeli citizens who made their homes there, helped transform that western portion into productive farmland and built new roads and infrastructure. Many of the descendants of the Muslim, Christian, Islamist families who originally lived there, still live there.

I've debated with you about this before, but you refuse to acknowledge historic and current facts, so I'm not going to waste any more of my time.
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I don't refuse to acknowledge any of that. Not at all. But I'm also not saying that Israel is a moral and decent country because of what they've been doing to the Palestinians for the past 70 years. They are doing what the English and French did to Canada's indigenous people of Canada, what the early Americans did to the natives in the USA. It was horrible then, it's horrible now. I'd even go so far as to say that what Israel is doing is even worse because they've discovered they can get away with the most heinous crimes against humanity right out in the open.

If Israel wants peace like they 'say' they do, they have to get over themselves and be willing to share a land that THEY CAME BACK TO AFTER ABANDONING IT. It's not just, how they are abusing and murdering Palestinian people. And I think too many on this forum aren't acknowledging that.
 
HermitHogan said:
Spelled Haaretz and Finkelstein.

Haaretz is the most liberal news organization in Israel and always takes the Palestinian side in conflicts. Its editorials are consistently anti-Israel. Finkelstein is a militant anti-Israel propagandist.
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Thank God for Haaretz and Dr. Finkelstein because at least some people are outspoken and have the added credibility of being Jewish and Dr. Finkelstein a holocaust survivor (or was it his parents who were survivors?). I've listened to so many of his talks and interviews and he is passionate about exposing the truth of what happens in Israel.
 
HermitHogan said:
What specific opportunities have there been to "avoid such events?"
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Well, the Oslo Accords for one. That was an opportunity that had it been followed through on by both sides, the Gaza tragedy wouldn't be happening. Nor the many deaths in the West Bank. Arafat agreed to peace, unfortunately Israel 'put off' the discussions about Right of Return for thousands of refugee Palestinians and the whole thing collapsed into nothing.
 
Ladies its called gurilla warfare. No rules, win with minimal costs but who cares, just win. Sure saying it is harder to prove. Yuck! Terrorists are easy
 
i will admit that I have not read this whole thread. To truthful, I don't understand what is going on. I assume it is attack against the Jewish faith. Does not make any sense to me. Why should any country be upset that other countries practice their religion.

I do not know a lot about those of the Jewish faith. I had one family on my husband's side. I never saw a difference other than the foods they could eat and if someone died. We went to set Shiva, all the mirrors in the home were covered and all the food served met kosher standards. How is this a problem to others who worship God in their own way?

Of course, I know there are many other things they practice according to their religious beliefs, but I can't think any of these things that should cause a war. I don't listen to the news any longer so I don't understand what if the fight about.

Is it just for land, that the Jewish people should not have a homeland where they can practice their religion without interference. Why is that a problem. We all want a homeland that we feel safe, that we can be who we are. Someone explain it to me please.
 
Debrah N. said:
I don't refuse to acknowledge any of that. Not at all. But I'm also not saying that Israel is a moral and decent country because of what they've been doing to the Palestinians for the past 70 years. They are doing what the English and French did to Canada's indigenous people of Canada, what the early Americans did to the natives in the USA. It was horrible then, it's horrible now. I'd even go so far as to say that what Israel is doing is even worse because they've discovered they can get away with the most heinous crimes against humanity right out in the open.

If Israel wants peace like they 'say' they do, they have to get over themselves and be willing to share a land that THEY CAME BACK TO AFTER ABANDONING IT. It's not just, how they are abusing and murdering Palestinian people. And I think too many on this forum aren't acknowledging that.
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They've been sharing their country ever since they started it. Problem is, they've been sharing it with people who want them erased from the planet. Oct 7th wasn't the first time the Palestinians attacked them, attacks have been ongoing for decades.

The Palestinians want to live differently than the Israelis. That's ok by the Israelis. About 18% of their population is Muslim, and they're not having any problems. They own businesses, their kids go to school and college, they shop and dine out and go to the movies, and worship their religion like everyone else there. Same with Christians who live there. They all get along just fine because they're not hell bent on wiping each other out.

Israel wants to leave the Palestinians alone. The Palestinians won't let them. I urge you to read the Palestinian equivalent of The Constitution, their national doctrine.
 
jimintoronto said:
Agreed. Here in Toronto there is a far leftist group called "Jews for Palestine " that is all ways side by side with the Palestinian supporters at the almost daily demonstrations. Self hating Jews ?
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No, Jews who see the injustice and abuse that is heaped on an entire population of Palestinians, and who don't want to be counted as part of it.
 
Murrmurr said:
They've been sharing their country ever since they started it. Problem is, they've been sharing it with people who want them erased from the planet. Oct 7th wasn't the first time the Palestinians attacked them, attacks have been ongoing for decades.

The Palestinians want to live differently than the Israelis. That's ok by the Israelis. About 18% of their population is Muslim, and they're not having any problems. They own businesses, their kids go to school and college, they shop and dine out and go to the movies, and worship their religion like everyone else there. Same with Christians who live there. They all get along just fine because they're not hell bent on wiping each other out.

Israel wants to leave the Palestinians alone. The Palestinians won't let them. I urge you to read the Palestinian equivalent of The Constitution, their national doctrine.
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No, they've tolerated the presence of Palestinians, barely.

You make mention of the Palestinian attitude about the people who invaded their land, who drove multitudes of them from their homes and villages and decry that attitude as though it's unreasonable and unfounded. I would think that Canada and the US have had our shares of First Nation people who held much the same attitude and perhaps many who still do in the darkest corners of their minds. And when you consider the abuses indigenous people have experienced when forced to relinquish their lives, can you blame them?

I try to imagine my own feelings if I should have found myself in their positions and it becomes a lot easier to understand. Which is one reason why I find it so strange that more Jews don't endeavour the same sort of mental exercise as they remember the Jews who were locked up in the Warsaw Ghetto. Much the same experience, food and water deprivations, extrajudicial killings, violence..... In the end though, 700 ZOB fighters facing heavily armed Nazi soldiers, succumbed and the rest of the ghetto was emptied. On the other hand, maybe Jews for Peace are the Jewish people who have likewise had the same thoughts I've had as I looked at this whole issue.

With regards to Israel's 'tolerance', early on in my research, I came across a collection of Zionist quotes by all of the various leaders and founders of the Israeli government. Looking at these, it's obvious what their attitudes and philosophies about the Palestinian people is. I invite you to read through some of these......http://www.thehypertexts.com/Zionist%20Quotes.htm
 

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