Yes. If you train the way you want to fight, you will fight the way you train.
So Much for "Police Protection"
- Thread starter Don M.
- Start date
Yes. If you train the way you want to fight, you will fight the way you train.
SifuPhil
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- Pennsylvania, USA
Wow. I had to spin around there for a second - I thought my Sifu was standing behind me.
wow. I had to spin around there for a second - i thought my sifu was standing behind me.
lol
Knight
Well-known Member
A trained and armed school police officer seems to be taking the brunt on inaction. I'd like to mention self preservation as a motivator for the delay. Basically based on thinking schools have open hallways, multiple shots being heard and not knowing how many shooters may be in the school. Would it be the smartest move to rush in to confront the unknown in open hallways? Or do like the other 3?
(CNN)When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.
With direction from the Broward deputies who were outside, Coral Springs police soon entered the building where the shooter was. New Broward County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene, and two of those deputies and an officer from Sunrise, Florida, joined the Coral Springs police as they went into the building.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html
Over the last few years police officers have been condemned for reacting to quickly . What would the story be if he rushed in and shot an innocent?
(CNN)When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.
With direction from the Broward deputies who were outside, Coral Springs police soon entered the building where the shooter was. New Broward County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene, and two of those deputies and an officer from Sunrise, Florida, joined the Coral Springs police as they went into the building.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html
Over the last few years police officers have been condemned for reacting to quickly . What would the story be if he rushed in and shot an innocent?
As I've said before.
ALL LEO are trained in the Active Shooter protocol. He was trained in the protocol. Doing nothing is exactly that. You do not wait. Waiting means people will die. He failed and any other LEO that waited before entering that school failed.
The training we've had since Columbine is very clear, the protocol is very clear, the expectations of every cop that responds to these incidents is abundantly clear.
He failed.
ALL LEO are trained in the Active Shooter protocol. He was trained in the protocol. Doing nothing is exactly that. You do not wait. Waiting means people will die. He failed and any other LEO that waited before entering that school failed.
The training we've had since Columbine is very clear, the protocol is very clear, the expectations of every cop that responds to these incidents is abundantly clear.
He failed.
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
He heard the staccatto fiiring. Figured he had a semi aumatice (the kind I am alway griping about). The so called inanimate object.
He figured he was outgunned and couldn't figure where the fire was coming from.
Here's the answer. Ban the AR-15's except for schools. There you go. No one would dare attack with anything else if they knew what was good for them.
He figured he was outgunned and couldn't figure where the fire was coming from.
Here's the answer. Ban the AR-15's except for schools. There you go. No one would dare attack with anything else if they knew what was good for them.
Smiling Jane
Senior Member
- Location
- Albuquerque NM
No danger of that with this deputy or the other three deputies who hid behind their cars.
The policy which basically a standing order in a paramilitary organization is to go in and engage the shooter. There is nothing tactical to think about. It is to disrupt, delay, distract the shooter as much as it is to apprehend or bring things to a final resolution.
Entering & clearing a building/room is part of combat shooting training and scenarios given to most law enforcement now a days. Yes the hallways are open but to fire down one the shooter must expose themselves as well(most school shooters wind up standing and shooting from what I've read over the years). The corner of a concrete wall could provide cover as could taking a kneeling or prone position. Again from what I've seen and heard over the year most of these school shooters don't barricade themselves in or set up position like the Vegas shooter. Active shooter is exactly that which means the situation is fluid where tactics, not weapons should win the day.
As to friendly fire especially if they know others are on scene most police know in detail what the local uniform looks like and they could always challenge a potential target in some way. Yes shooting an innocent is the worst case scenario but saving innocents is THE primary goal. But isn't shooting an innocent always an issue(chance part of the job). Any time a cop fires there is always a chance a stray round could go through a window, wall or simply miss a target or themselves could misidentify a target.
rgp
Well-known Member
- Location
- Milford,OH
Knight said.......
"Over the last few years police officers have been condemned for reacting to quickly . What would the story be if he rushed in and shot an innocent?"
That's the point I've been making...they're dammed if they do & dammed if they don't...
An officer doing a Clint Eastwood style rush in, guns blazing...does no one any good either if he gets cut down, the second he clears the door.
Another thought or two, do we know @ what point the shooter ran out? Where was the deputy when the first shot was heard ? Did he think his better stand would be made outside? Like I said earlier....too much that we do not know...just now.
"Over the last few years police officers have been condemned for reacting to quickly . What would the story be if he rushed in and shot an innocent?"
That's the point I've been making...they're dammed if they do & dammed if they don't...
An officer doing a Clint Eastwood style rush in, guns blazing...does no one any good either if he gets cut down, the second he clears the door.
Another thought or two, do we know @ what point the shooter ran out? Where was the deputy when the first shot was heard ? Did he think his better stand would be made outside? Like I said earlier....too much that we do not know...just now.
Or movie star super-heros.
I surmise that the three Broward County Sheriff's deputies that were the first to arrive on scene were outside the school because they were expecting a situation report from Peterson, but, of course, he couldn't give them one because he had no idea what the situation was.
Peterson took the school assignment. He took the pay and benefits for the risk. What he did was called 'cowardice under fire' or 'cowardice in the face of the enemy' in the military. It was punished by execution. He should be stripped of all pension and benefits.
IKE
Well-known Member
- Location
- Oklahoma....U.S.A.
I don't know a lot and I'm just going out here on a limb, but it used to be that when they posted an officer in schools it was for breakin' up fights, patrolling for drug use. I'm just not sure this guy was trained or ready for what he was about to encounter. That being said he had a weapon and could have intervened, what I heard was it was 4 minutes he waited, That's not a lot of time to decide what action you should take. I'm not trying to take up for him. I think the system is broke....
All Police Agencies in North America have been training for Active Shooter incidents since Columbine (mandatory training) so without a doubt he was trained.
The protocol is to enter, engage and eliminate the threat or in the very least distract them from their slaughter and save innocent lives.
When you figure how quickly someone can squeeze a trigger and reload with pre loaded magazines, then every second counts.
If you wait, humans are being slaughtered in seconds. Waiting is not an option.
As I've said before, this is how we are trained, this is what the protocol is, the expectations are abundantly clear.
Aunt Bea
SF VIP
- Location
- Near Mount Pilot
I agree, in this particular case so many different parts of the system failed in the months leading up to this tragedy. If things had been done differently we would be dealing with one troubled teenager instead of a mass murderer and his 17 young victims. Very sad.
Smiling Jane
Senior Member
- Location
- Albuquerque NM
He probably hoped all he would be required to do was break up some fights and bust some kids for smoking, but that would require ignoring the frequency of school shootings.
Four minutes is a massive amount of time when someone is shooting an automatic rifle. It might not seem like much when you're watching a TV show, but think about how long that would be if you were standing outside a school listening to a gunman firing at the people inside. Big difference.
I get it.. I just have to wonder if protocol is being followed in training...(again) I'm not taking up for this guy....I still believe the system may be where the failure is. It's just all a sad sad thing. They should at the very least put a well trained officer in our schools. Maybe what I'm trying to say is his experience might ought to play in the decision.
Smiling Jane
Senior Member
- Location
- Albuquerque NM
The officer in question had a lot of seniority. He probably bid on this job, thinking it was going to be a walk in the park until he retired. Because of his seniority, he would have been given the job, no matter how badly qualified he may have been. For all we know, he was known for his laziness and lackluster performance, but he was able to hang on and not ruffle feathers in his department's hierarchy (the kind of thing that gets better qualified officers demoted). It's the old Peter Principle in action.
I'm sure we've all heard the horror stories about people who work for the government, whether it be federal, state, county or local.
Smiling Jane
Senior Member
- Location
- Albuquerque NM
Consider that some people can run a mile in that time if the TV show analogy bothers you.
RadishRose
SF VIP
- Location
- Connecticut, USA
How could he know where the shooter was or if there were a bunch of shooters? He was only one person in a huge place. Or maybe I just don't understand the training.
Exactly.... So isn't that the system failing....they need to change the way of thinkin' about who they put where.
Smiling Jane
Senior Member
- Location
- Albuquerque NM
I totally agree. I posted on another thread about this that putting this dud in that position shows how little priority the sheriff's department gave to school security.