So Much for "Police Protection"

James said:
Within seconds there is mass chaos with hundreds of kids adults running for their lives as well as classrooms going into lockdown. In this case the pos also set off a fire alarm to add to the chaos. With the limited number of officers that can respond within that 0 - 10 minute window the ability to control that perimeter is challenging to say the least, especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors.

However, that's where you rely on the Active Shooter training that teachers and students receive. They help to control that mass panic and confusion while responding officers are inside hunting the pos down and getting information from witnesses they can broadcast out to other officers that are forming that perimeter.

But, if you have no one immediately inside hunting the pos down and relaying information to those establishing a perimeter, and engaging him before he has time to exit or kill even more, that is a big problem.
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I get it happens fast and there is confusion in the early stages but if these deputies were in place observing the kids coming out I find it hard to believe the shooter wouldn't be more disheveled, sweaty(Florida) and/or have an imprint of a gasmask on his face(some reports have him wearing a mask or gas mask). It is second guessing and there was the delay of the security feed but I can't believe there wasn't at least one indicator as to the suspect. In the end I can see getting as many students out of there as soon as possible.
 

WhatInThe said:
I get it happens fast and there is confusion in the early stages but if these deputies were in place observing the kids coming out I find it hard to believe the shooter wouldn't be more disheveled, sweaty(Florida) and/or have an imprint of a gasmask on his face(some reports have him wearing a mask or gas mask). It is second guessing and there was the delay of the security feed but I can't believe there wasn't at least one indicator as to the suspect. In the end I can see getting as many students out of there as soon as possible.
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The post mortem of the event will no doubt shed some light on the who, what, where and when's, but what is known currently is that there were serious breakdowns that very well may have added to the body count.
 
James said:
Within seconds there is mass chaos with hundreds of kids adults running for their lives as well as classrooms going into lockdown. In this case the pos also set off a fire alarm to add to the chaos. With the limited number of officers that can respond within that 0 - 10 minute window the ability to control that perimeter is challenging to say the least, especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors.


However, that's where you rely on the Active Shooter training that teachers and students receive. They help to control that mass panic and confusion while responding officers are inside hunting the pos down and getting information from witnesses they can broadcast out to other officers that are forming that perimeter.


But, if you have no one immediately inside hunting the pos down and relaying information to those establishing a perimeter, and engaging him before he has time to exit or kill even more, that is a big problem.
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Finally a post with some insight into what mass panic and confusion can do. The 0 - 10 minute window with panic and quoting you " especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors." 4 minutes is within that 0-10 you describe.


For me whether it's one or 50 each life lost is a tragedy. Quantity seems to make so many posters far more upset. Peripheral issues like the guards wage & benefits do nothing to address the issue of the weapon the killer used. Mankind began with primitive weapons, over time more sofisticated means of killing was developed. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say if all guns were restricted/unavailable other means of mass murder wold be used by those wanting to kill enmasse.


I do agree with Campy banning the sale of the ar-15 and similar assault weapons would probably be a good 1st. step to limiting this kind of mass murder. Limiting because I think if there is the thought process that makes it possible for someone to kill enmasse they will find another way.
 

The challenges facing first responders in those initial seconds or minutes is huge.

Just for an example I grew up in a small City of 18,000 people. The High School that I attended was huge in comparison with over 2,500 students as it serviced a very large rural population.

The local police department size was about 40 uniform members. With those officers spread out on shifts, assigned to special duties like the detective branch or drugs, there were approx 6 uniforms assigned to a shift plus a supervisor. Throw in sick leave, injuries, vacation, maternity leave for female members. that shift could be reduced to 3 or 4.

In an active shooter situation you would have about 4 officers that could attend within a couple of minutes.

Their first objective is getting inside and challenging the shooter. The perimeter for the most part would be left to teachers to control until neighboring departments could arrive to establish the perimeter. Within that 0 -10 minute window you "might" on a good day have 4 more to do that.

Certainly larger municipalities would have more resources to draw upon, but each situation is unique with their resources and response times.

It would be great to have a platoon of officers dedicated to every soft target but I don't think the taxpayer would be in agreement.

One thing that is certain however is that the primary goal is always to enter, engage, and stop the pos.
 
As pointed out engaging the shooter is priority number one. Most police probably understand this including the local police department and other deputies. People & pundits are not the only ones questioning the deputies that did not enter while the shooting was still going on. The local police department of Coral Springs wondered why their officers were going in after the shooter while already present sheriffs deputies stayed outside.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...some-broward-deputies-for-not-entering-school

Law enforcement colleagues and professionals are questioning those deputies for not entering. It should be noted new arriving county deputies also went into the building along with Coral Springs and Sunrise police. So law enforcement from three different organizations entered while 4 county deputies stayed outside-that is a training and or leadership issue even if it's not providing enough or adequate reminders and/or training that during an active shooter situation you go in.
 
WhatInThe said:
As pointed out engaging the shooter is priority number one. Most police probably understand this including the local police department and other deputies. People & pundits are not the only ones questioning the deputies that did not enter while the shooting was still going on. The local police department of Coral Springs wondered why their officers were going in after the shooter while already present sheriffs deputies stayed outside.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...some-broward-deputies-for-not-entering-school

Law enforcement colleagues and professionals are questioning those deputies for not entering. It should be noted new arriving county deputies also went into the building along with Coral Springs and Sunrise police. So law enforcement from three different organizations entered while 4 county deputies stayed outside-that is a training and or leadership issue even if it's not providing enough or adequate reminders and/or training that during an active shooter situation you go in.
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The arriving county deputies, did they enter while the shooting was happening or after it stopped?
 
Knight said:
The arriving county deputies, did they enter while the shooting was happening or after it stopped?
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Florida Rep Hager said today that the call for the governor to remove sheriff Israel is growing.


Lawmaker asks Gov. Scott to remove Broward Sheriff Scott Israel after Parkland shooting


" BOCA RATON, Fla. (CBS12)

Rep. Bill Hager (Boca Raton), the chairman of the Florida House of Justice Appropriations, has called on Gov. Rick Scott to remove Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel - a power the governor has under Florida law - from his post for neglect of duty and incompetence in regards to the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

In his letter to the governor on Saturday, Hager said that various media outlets reported that the School Resource Officer, Scot Peterson, and three deputies under Sheriff Israel's command "were on campus at the time of the attack and chose to take cover themselves rather than stepping up to protect our students."

more at link

http://cbs12.com/news/local/lawmake...-sheriff-scott-israel-after-parkland-shooting
 
Knight said:
The arriving county deputies, did they enter while the shooting was happening or after it stopped?
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That article doesn't specify but judging by the tone of those involved there still could've been shots in the background/active shooting. They say the shooting was for 4 minutes. Some police arrived 2-3 minutes later by some reports. Also note those other deputies didn't even get closer to the building staying behind their cars which keeps my blood boiling. And the clock puncher was apparently there for just about the whole thing.

They said more precise information is forth coming with when the responding officers turn in their reports and radio traffic is analyzed which will help put some more precise times on the response, might even be shots in the background. They're probably analyzing student cell video as well.
 
Technology will be able or should be able to pinpoint a lot of information. My former department began putting GPS transponders on all patrol vehicles a few years ago.
 
" especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors."

This idea about the shooter easily mixing in with the students hit me between the eyes as a serious problem. In Australia, should this ever happen, the police would have a distinct advantage. All students in private and public schools are easily identified by their school uniforms. Any shooters would be easily identified from a distance.
 
Warrigal said:
" especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors."

This idea about the shooter easily mixing in with the students hit me between the eyes as a serious problem. In Australia, should this ever happen, the police would have a distinct advantage. All students in private and public schools are easily identified by their school uniforms. Any shooters would be easily identified from a distance.
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So what is to stop the shooter from getting a school uniform.? Not a solution at all.

The solution in my eyes? A barb wired fence all around the school like Guantanamo. After all the schools are prisons now.
 
WhatInThe said:
As pointed out engaging the shooter is priority number one. Most police probably understand this including the local police department and other deputies. People & pundits are not the only ones questioning the deputies that did not enter while the shooting was still going on. The local police department of Coral Springs wondered why their officers were going in after the shooter while already present sheriffs deputies stayed outside.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...some-broward-deputies-for-not-entering-school

Law enforcement colleagues and professionals are questioning those deputies for not entering. It should be noted new arriving county deputies also went into the building along with Coral Springs and Sunrise police. So law enforcement from three different organizations entered while 4 county deputies stayed outside-that is a training and or leadership issue even if it's not providing enough or adequate reminders and/or training that during an active shooter situation you go in.
Click to expand...

I doubt that any training and/or leadership could have forced Peterson and his 3 fellow deputies to do what they were hired to do.

Part of the problem with elected sheriffs is that a newly elected sheriff is stuck with the people who were hired before s/he took the job. I don't know about the other 3, but Peterson had been there much longer than the current sheriff who couldn't fire him for being a clock-puncher. Many of us who spent years working saw the lengths to which clock-punchers will go to keep the jobs they aren't fit to perform.
 
Warrigal said:
" especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors."

This idea about the shooter easily mixing in with the students hit me between the eyes as a serious problem. In Australia, should this ever happen, the police would have a distinct advantage. All students in private and public schools are easily identified by their school uniforms. Any shooters would be easily identified from a distance.
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The shooter is the one with the GUN! If deputy would have went in right away he would of seen that, or the shooter would of dropped the gun and blended in. Either way killing of innocent students would have stopped
 
Smiling Jane said:
I totally agree. I posted on another thread about this that putting this dud in that position shows how little priority the sheriff's department gave to school security.
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I've worked veteran cops over the years that were top notch, no yellow stripe and common sense and with younger guys that were chicken sh*t with zero common sense that could start a fight with themselves in a phone booth.

There is a host of psychological testing before you get hired but some still get through the net. Not sure what the answer is or how to weed them out but the problem with policing as with most occupations is once you make it through probation you are almost bullet proof when it comes to getting canned.
 
911 said:
As a sworn police officer to uphold the law and protect the people, I must enter the building. That does not mean that I can't take a moment to put on my vest. Some body armor is better than none. As I enter the building, I will attempt to locate the shooter (s) and slowly make my way towards where the shooting is coming from. Once I locate the shooter, my goal then will be to take him down. All the while, I will remain in touch with my back ups that are on the way, so that they have some idea of the situation upon their arrival.
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That's good to hear 911 and that's the way it should be. We are thankful for officers like you and there would be more breathing students and staff if police like you were on scene instead of the cowards who were there and were too afraid to take action and do their jobs
 
James said:
I've worked veteran cops over the years that were top notch, no yellow stripe and common sense and with younger guys that were chicken sh*t with zero common sense that could start a fight with themselves in a phone booth.

There is a host of psychological testing before you get hired but some still get through the net. Not sure what the answer is or how to weed them out but the problem with policing as with most occupations is once you make it through probation you are almost bullet proof when it comes to getting canned.
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Many people become adept at staying under the radar. They never get in trouble, never get noticed. They're usually mediocre employees who accomplish nothing and don't want to.
 
Camper6 said:
So what is to stop the shooter from getting a school uniform.? Not a solution at all.

The solution in my eyes? A barb wired fence all around the school like Guantanamo. After all the schools are prisons now.
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Nothing really, and if an ex student, probably easy to do but it is another hurdle for the shooter.

Your solution and description of schools is a very jaundiced one. I hope you were being ironic.
 
Smiling Jane said:
I doubt that any training and/or leadership could have forced Peterson and his 3 fellow deputies to do what they were hired to do.

Part of the problem with elected sheriffs is that a newly elected sheriff is stuck with the people who were hired before s/he took the job. I don't know about the other 3, but Peterson had been there much longer than the current sheriff who couldn't fire him for being a clock-puncher. Many of us who spent years working saw the lengths to which clock-punchers will go to keep the jobs they aren't fit to perform.
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Not only do you have the clock punchers going out of their way to do nothing yet keep their job is the management that doesn't have the will to fire them and will frequently try to 'hide' an employee simply to keep them out of the way. I'm wondering if this deputy got school resource officer because they didn't want him in a patrol car or a specialty unit. I guess someone assumed he could handle juvenile delinquents etc. Also if this deputy knew the right politicians, commanders, supervisors etc I guess he would have no problem keeping his job in combination with FOP threats/action.
 
todalake postQuote"The shooter is the one with the GUN! If deputy would have went in right away he would of seen that, or the shooter would of dropped the gun and blended in. Either way killing of innocent students would have stopped."
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And how do you know this?He could have been instantly shot going in. Without being there in the moment speculation is all that is possible by people like us sitting safely in our homes typing. I tend to look beyond wages, woulda, coulda, shoulda, and see the police officer as a person instantly in a situation that he has never faced in his life. I don't know what his training consisted of, or why he and the other 3 police officers took the precautions they did. I can speculate it could have been part of their training. What I do know is the SHOOTER is responsible. It seems to me quantity is what matters to you. For me even one is tradgic. I don't place blame anywhere but on the shooter. Unlike you I can't state as fact he would have ended the shooting. I can speculate he would have instantly been killed adding to the death toll.
 
"In his letter to the governor on Saturday, Hager said that various media outlets reported that the School Resource Officer, Scot Peterson, and three deputies under Sheriff Israel's command "were on campus at the time of the attack and chose to take cover themselves rather than stepping up to protect our students."

I don't know if this is true, but if it is, the idea of these officers taking cover instead of making an effort to get to the shooter about half sickens me.
 
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