Dear God, another school shooting?

[Shalimar]

Jocks are not always model citizens either, many have been accused of sexual assault. Perhaps too much adulation can be an emotional minefield also, leading to an extreme sense of entitlement in some young male’s eyes.

 

[Leonie]

My reply ? Hell yes, we need to make him a hero. With that one bit of self defense he achieved a life-time of healing. I'm proud of him. I only wish he had then booted the bully in the face. I would have.

But what if the bully ended up with a broken neck when his head hit the concrete, or God forbid, the bullied kid brought a gun to school and shot him and his friends who were standing around taking photos? Would he still be a hero then? Don't get me wrong I hate bullies and in the past have told my own son to stand up to a kid who was bullying him but kids are kids and maybe they sometimes overreact.

I don't know what the answer is, but making guns harder to come by would be top of my list.

 

[Traveler]

That little punk bully got EXACTLY what he was asking for. What Leonie may not realize is that the video showed a boy self-healing. It is very unlikely he will ever be bullied again by anyone and certainly never by that little punk. In the process, we just maybe saw a future shooting nipped in the bud.

I can promise that the boy who defended himself, now feels much better about himself.

 

[Traveler]

Jocks are not always model citizens either, many have been accused of sexual assault. Perhaps too much adulation can be an emotional minefield also, leading to an extreme sense of entitlement in some young male’s eyes.

I don't recall suggesting that all jocks are model citizens. I do, however, believe that sports are a great thing for boys. All 3 of my nephews were football players from age 6 onward, and all 3 are now college grads. One of whom is an officer in the U.S Coast guard.

In any event, to goal here is to examine ways to stop school shootings. Sex assault is another situation entirely.

 

[Shalimar]

I don't recall suggesting that all jocks are model citizens. I do, however, believe that sports are a great thing for boys. All 3 of my nephews were football players from age 6 onward, and all 3 are now college grads. One of whom is an officer in the U.S Coast guard.

In any event, to goal here is to examine ways to stop school shootings. Sex assault is another situation entirely.

I understand the goal of this thread, but self esteem speaks to cause and effect regarding possible motivation of young school shooters. Bullying has been explored as a possible trigger. You raised the prospect of sports as being a vehicle for kids to find a niche where they fit in. For most kids this works well, as it has done for your sons. However, for some it exacerbates the

problem. As for sexual assault not being relevant to this subject, I disagree, any pattern of violence can be a marker for future murders. I have seen it in my own practice.

 

[BobF]

I did read the full article about the Swiss, and appreciate you posting it. The Swiss have a wise approach to gun ownership. That said, their culture is not our culture. Swiss gun laws work for them because they approach gun ownership very differently than Americans do. Would that it we could easily make it otherwise, but we cannot.

Within the article itself are these words: "One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation." (The emphasis is mine.)

Note that even with their strong gun and shooting culture, Swiss citizens have far fewer guns per capita than Americans.

Thank you again for the reference to this article. I learn something every day on SF.

I do appreciate that you have read about the Swiss. Many have not.

From the article is the following:

Switzerland trails behind only the U.S, Yemen and Serbia in the number of guns per capita; between 2.3 million and 4.5 million military and private firearms are estimated to be in circulation in a country of only 8 million people. Yet, despite the prevalence of guns, the violent-crime rate is low: government figures show about 0.5 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. By comparison, the U.S rate in the same year was about 5 firearm killings per 100,000 people, according to a 2011 U.N. report.

And more from the report:

One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation.

Sad but that is very true. In the US we are now denying teaching such items and refrain from insisting on it. We have those 'jock' types, paid enormous wages and protected by our laws and military that refuse to stand for the flag at the beginnings of the games. Something so simple and basic to showing beliefs for our countries laws. Maybe all who refuse to stand should be drafted and run through a year or more of military training.

Somehow, the Swiss do pass on it's loyalties to younger folks. This is but one of several openings presented in that article. We need to change our ways, to get back to the loyalties of our past years. When parents can be jailed for attempting to punish a child, there is little hope for the future of the US. The author of the Swiss article sees these areas and notes the difference. The Swiss encourage lessons in loyalty while the US just no longer seems to care.

I am happy you read the post. There is plenty to learn from watching the Swiss.

I believe that one of the nations we used for ideas for our Constitution was the Swiss. We also gained by borrowing from the English, French, and others.

Have a good day.

 

[Sunny]

Nancy, that's an interesting point about the social media chatrooms. They are just another vehicle for communication; yet, as you say, they make it much easier for violent and emotionally disturbed people to find each other and share ideas. However, they also do a lot of good. Probably nothing can be done about them.

 

[Camper6]

The terms AK-47 AR-15 do not mean full automatic military style guns. These same rifles can be sold in either form of full automatic, fire and repeat fire as long as the trigger is held, or standard, fire once for each pull of the trigger. More shots would require more pulls of the trigger.

I don't know why so many folks get confused by the names. That describes their appearance only. The full automatic is illegal for the private market so only semi automatic would be the public market item.

Bob the difference is immaterial between them. So you can flick a switch? So what?

People are sick of the killings of innocents with weapons designed for the battlefield.

You can explain the difference all you like.

People don't care. The damage being inflicted is your evidence.

 

[BobF]

Bob the difference is immaterial between them. So you can flick a switch? So what?

People are sick of the killings of innocents with weapons designed for the battlefield.

You can explain the difference all you like.

People don't care. The damage being inflicted is your evidence.

Full automatic and semiautomatic are different guns. It is illegal to sell the full automatic. So only those that had been sold prior to the new laws would have a lever or switch or whatever to change. The newer guns can not be changed.

 

[Traveler]

I understand the goal of this thread, but self esteem speaks to cause and effect regarding possible motivation of young school shooters. Bullying has been explored as a possible trigger. You raised the prospect of sports as being a vehicle for kids to find a niche where they fit in. For most kids this works well, as it has done for your sons. However, for some it exacerbates the

problem. As for sexual assault not being relevant to this subject, I disagree, any pattern of violence can be a marker for future murders. I have seen it in my own practice.

Once again, we are talking at cross purposes. Murders, in general, are not related to school shootings. Two different animals.
I don't think this is the time or place to be discussing feminist politics. So, unless you have personally counseled school shooters, I'd rather not re-open that can of worms.

 

[Traveler]

BobF, I agree with what you have been saying about guns and a broken society. Unfortunately, there are some anti-gun fanatics who will never listen to a word you have to say on the topic.

We have seen on this thread that some folks would completely abolish the 2nd Amendment to The Bill of Rights.

We both know that the banning of any semi-automatic, would be just the sharp edge of the wedge. Once that is achieved, they will keep pounding away until pistols are outlawed, followed quickly by shot-guns and deer hunting rifles.

 

[StarSong]

We both know that the banning of any semi-automatic, would be just the sharp edge of the wedge. Once that is achieved, they will keep pounding away until pistols are outlawed, followed quickly by shot-guns and deer hunting rifles.

You can't possibly know that, can you? That may be the NRA hyperbole used to dismiss any pedaling back on current gun laws, but the argument rings hollow. It wasn't so long ago that medical marijuana wasn't being considered for legalization because of that same slippery-slope theory. As it happens, MM has been legal in many states for quite a while. Somehow those moves didn't trigger a public groundswell urging the legalization of heroin.

p.s. I know a lot of people who would like to see greater restrictions and licensing for certain automatic and semi-automatic weapons, however I don't personally know any American who is interested in outlawing home protection pistols or hunting rifles. This isn't to suggest that some no-guns-at-all people aren't out there, but polling shows they are in the vast minority.

 

[Camper6]

Did you take time to read the article about the Swiss? They have a number of guns owned per person up near the top.

We do not have large numbers of automatic guns in the US. Many folks are more interested in private security and that means for most it is pistol types of guns. In the current rules the full automatic is not to be sold. So there should be fewer and fewer as time goes on.

Please do read about the Swiss and how they get started on guns at early ages. It is not the idea of guns to be scared of. People with little knowledge of how to handle difficult situation, mental problems, are the ones to worry about.

Bob you keep quoting Switzerland as a model for gun ownership. Well guess what? What you are leaving out of the equation is that ex military get to keep their weapons so that would account for a huge amount of weapons.

Now conscription is mandatory in Switzerland. Would Americans put up with mandatory conscription? Hold your breath.

Switzerland has mandatory military service (German: Militärdienst; French: service militaire; Italian: servizio militare) in the Swiss Army for all able-bodied male citizens, who are conscripted when they reach the age of majority, though women may volunteer for any position.

 

[Camper6]

BobF, I agree with what you have been saying about guns and a broken society. Unfortunately, there are some anti-gun fanatics who will never listen to a word you have to say on the topic.

We have seen on this thread that some folks would completely abolish the 2nd Amendment to The Bill of Rights.

We both know that the banning of any semi-automatic, would be just the sharp edge of the wedge. Once that is achieved, they will keep pounding away until pistols are outlawed, followed quickly by shot-guns and deer hunting rifles.

We have seen on this thread that some folks would completely abolish the 2nd Amendment to The Bill of Rights.

Sorry I can't agree with that . I have never seen that stated here. It's a scare tactic promoted by the gun lobby.

 

[Camper6]

Full automatic and semiautomatic are different guns. It is illegal to sell the full automatic. So only those that had been sold prior to the new laws would have a lever or switch or whatever to change. The newer guns can not be changed.

Bob. I keep telling you. No one cares about that.

The present ones allowed are setting records. People are sick of hearing about children being murdered with weapons designed for the battlefield to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as possible.

I know I can't convince you but I will keep trying that you don't need a semi automatic rifle weapons for home defense where someone can get them.

The states have different laws for safe storage unfortunately because it should be a federal requirement.

 

[Traveler]

You can't possibly know that, can you? That may be the NRA hyperbole used to dismiss any pedaling back on current gun laws, but the argument rings hollow. It wasn't so long ago that medical marijuana wasn't being considered for legalization because of that same slippery-slope theory. As it happens, MM has been legal in many states for quite a while. Somehow those moves didn't trigger a public groundswell urging the legalization of heroin.

p.s. I know a lot of people who would like to see greater restrictions and licensing for certain automatic and semi-automatic weapons, however I don't personally know any American who is interested in outlawing home protection pistols or hunting rifles. This isn't to suggest that some no-guns-at-all people aren't out there, but polling shows they are in the vast minority.

Actually, I can and do know exactly how liberalism works. It IS the sharp edge of the wedge.

I well remember the issues of abortion. At first it was merely "My body. My rights" and abortion "to save the life of the mother". Later it became late term abortion where a woman could have a "partial-birth" abortion just a few days prior to normal delivery. It then deteriorated into schools arranging abortion for 14 year-old girls --- without the parents knowledge or consent.

I trust liberals about as far as I can throw a refrigerator. Give 'em an inch and I guarantee they'll take ten miles.

Once there was national discussion about instructing tolerance on gayness in the public schools. "Hey, no problem", I said. Now they are teaching transgenderism to kindergarten kids.

Ban any semi-automatic long gun, and soon there will be no guns of any type allowed. God, help us after that.

 

[Camper6]

Actually, I can and do know exactly how liberalism works. It IS the sharp edge of the wedge.

I well remember the issues of abortion. At first it was merely "My body. My rights" and abortion "to save the life of the mother". Later it became late term abortion where a woman could gave a "partial-birth" abortion just a few days prior to normal delivery. It then deteriorated into schools arranging abortion for 14 year-old girls --- without the parents knowledge or consent.

I trust liberals about as far as I can throw a refrigerator. Give 'em an inch and I guarantee they'll take ten miles.

Once there was national discussion about instructing tolerance on gayness in the public schools. "Hey, no problem", I said. Now they are teaching transgenderism to kindergarten kids.

Ban any semi-automatic long gun, and soon there will be no guns of any type allowed. God, help us after that.

Best you stop now. You are getting into heavy duty politics and the thread will be closed.

God help us after that?

Read the title of the thread.

"Dear God another school shooting?"

People are praying for different things. I'm with the title of the thread. What you are creating is an imaginary scenario.

What we have is 'another school shooting"?

 

[Traveler]

We have seen on this thread that some folks would completely abolish the 2nd Amendment to The Bill of Rights.

Sorry I can't agree with that . I have never seen that stated here. It's a scare tactic promoted by the gun lobby.

I am NOT a member of the NRA nor do I read any NRA literature.

I don't have the time or interest in re-reading the entire 13 pages of posts but there was a person who talked about "A well regulated militia, of colonial times, no longer being valid". Another person stated that we did not need to be protected. I think he/she mentioned some sarcastic remark about the dangers of "herds of bison".

 

[Traveler]

Camper6, our society has gone to hell in a hand-basket. You think it is bad now ? Just wait. You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Until, and unless, we are willing to drastically change how we raise our children, school killings will keep getting worse and worse.

Even if guns are totally banned, it will continue. Does the name timothy McVeigh ring a bell ? He managed to kill 168 people and he never needed a gun.

Don't kid yourself. The info to repeat that act is out there on the www and any kid who can read, can do the same. Even if a would be killer did not build such a massive bomb there are still very simple ways to build a "pressure cooker bomb", just like the Boston Bombers did.

Change society or get used to the "new normal".

 

[BobF]

Bob. I keep telling you. No one cares about that.

The present ones allowed are setting records. People are sick of hearing about children being murdered with weapons designed for the battlefield to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as possible.

I know I can't convince you but I will keep trying that you don't need a semi automatic rifle weapons for home defense where someone can get them.

The states have different laws for safe storage unfortunately because it should be a federal requirement.

First off I say you are completely wrong and you just do not read what I post.

Back to firing rates and we no longer are allowed to sell full automatic weapons. That two guns look alike and operate differently and still called by the same name seems to make no difference to you. Make the press start talking about full automatic and semi automatic when describing the guns. Calling a semi could be a military combat weapon but for sale to public there can be no full automatic sold. For someone to have a full automatic means they bought before the current laws were passed. He can't sell it as such and will have to have it converted to semi automatic. So in time there will be no more full automatic military weapons.

Now just what is it you don't understand about full automatic(repeating firing) or semi automatic (fires only when the trigger has been pressed again - no repeating firing possible.

 

[BobF]

Bob you keep quoting Switzerland as a model for gun ownership. Well guess what? What you are leaving out of the equation is that ex military get to keep their weapons so that would account for a huge amount of weapons.

Now conscription is mandatory in Switzerland. Would Americans put up with mandatory conscription? Hold your breath.

Switzerland has mandatory military service (German: Militärdienst; French: service militaire; Italian: servizio militare) in the Swiss Army for all able-bodied male citizens, who are conscripted when they reach the age of majority, though women may volunteer for any position.

That is at least one per person but they do have more. They are posted to be right behind the US in gun ownership. They start gun activities at 12 years, shooting guns is a national thing, for them I guess it is better than golf, baseball, football, and it is a nonexclusive activity from youth to well in the years family sport. Something the US should take on and be proud of.

 

[Camper6]

First off I say you are completely wrong and you just do not read what I post.

Back to firing rates and we no longer are allowed to sell full automatic weapons. That two guns look alike and operate differently and still called by the same name seems to make no difference to you. Make the press start talking about full automatic and semi automatic when describing the guns. Calling a semi could be a military combat weapon but for sale to public there can be no full automatic sold. For someone to have a full automatic means they bought before the current laws were passed. He can't sell it as such and will have to have it converted to semi automatic. So in time there will be no more full automatic military weapons.

Now just what is it you don't understand about full automatic(repeating firing) or semi automatic (fires only when the trigger has been pressed again - no repeating firing possible.

Bob. I really don't care about any of that as an excuse to stop what is happening. It's not working.

I have a grandson that goes to school and can't defend himself.

Thats what I care about. I'll be selfish. I don't care about your rights or distinctions about guns. I just want action to stop it and that's what this thread is about.

 

[Traveler]

Bob. I don't care about your rights ....

Need I say more ?

 

[Traveler]

People who think banning guns will solve the school killings are like the slum lord who refuses to fix all of the faulty wiring in his apartment complex. Fires keep breaking out, so he places buckets of sand in the hallways and posts signs that say, "USE IN CASE OF FIRE"

Electrical fires, like gun killings, are a symptom of a must greater problem.

In the case of gun killing in schools, the problem is a broken society and a "touchy-feely" liberal approach to child rearing.

 

[BobF]

Bob. I really don't care about any of that as an excuse to stop what is happening. It's not working.

I have a grandson that goes to school and can't defend himself.

Thats what I care about. I'll be selfish. I don't care about your rights or distinctions about guns. I just want action to stop it and that's what this thread is about.

I don't think StarSong wants some half sensible and not working quick answer to this US problem. That has been tried too many times so far but no success. Chasing the wrong problem will never get anything fixed. We have a major social problem that needs fixed. It has taken years to get this messed up and it will take many years to get things straight again.

We need some education that tells folks how to adapt to others ways. We need some education that teaches our graduates how to think and operate. Recent reports say our college graduates are inferior to students from other countries. This is just one comment on how the US is messed up from the middle to the outside. We need to fix much more than just the small minded anti gun stuff some wish to chase - now - and forget all te other things going on.

You don't care about my efforts to bring up these other area and where to find good examples. Then don't wast others times by reading what you hate and wasting out time with outright negative and useless comments.

We must eliminate sloppy raising of children, at home and in our schools. Discipline never really hurt anyone, but the kids learned soon not to talk bad to the teacher and parents. A good start in life.