Ancient Rome versus Greeks

[SeniorBen]

Okay, I don't think we can get much lower than that. Why would you reduce a discussion of our human potential to bar room mentality? Why?

That was just my attempt to inject a bit of humor into the discussion. Many of us came of age during the '70s and remember that SNL bit fairly well, or perhaps not all that well depending on your state of mind at the time and the amount of mind altering drugs swirling around your brain, but probably remember it just the same.

And, as @Pepper pointed out, what is depicted in the video is satire. Society wasn't nearly as polarized in the '70s as it is today, but that was when it really started to accelerate. There were the pro-war and anti-war segments of society. The John Birch Society was still going strong. And Milton Friedman's free market philosophies were beginning to take hold with the belief that corporations have no obligation to do good in the world; their only responsibility is to shareholders and to increase profits.

As far as this being a discussion about "human potential," I thought it was a discussion about the Greeks vs. the Romans.

 

[Vida May]

I wouldn't worry about it too much, Vida ....other people's behavior, I mean. It's not your problem. Et vivere, reservate, right?

Can we think that through? This forum has moderators who determine what we can or can not say. They also have the power to ban people who cause trouble, and I don't want to be seen as the person causing trouble as I push the limits of what we talk about.

Is the problem what we talk about or our behavior?

 

[Vida May]

And integrated Pagan holidays into Christianity.

For sure. You think you are engaged with your traditional rituals of the sun and moon cycles and learn the Christian explanation for it and suddenly you are a Christian. Nobody knows what happened but the meaning of what is being done is changed so now you are celebrating a Christian holy day.

 

[Paco Dennis]

Who was Constantine? Constantine made Christianity the main religion of Rome, and created Constantinople, which became the most powerful city in the world. Emperor Constantine (ca A.D. 280– 337) reigned over a major transition in the Roman Empire—and much more.

 

[Geezer Garage]

He wears a three piece suit, and has a golden parachute, and stock options.

How do we understand the god of war today? Does He look like the God Jesus fighting against evil?

 

[Vida May]

That was just my attempt to inject a bit of humor into the discussion. Many of us came of age during the '70s and remember that SNL bit fairly well, or perhaps not all that well depending on your state of mind at the time and the amount of mind altering drugs swirling around your brain, but probably remember it just the same.

And, as @Pepper pointed out, what is depicted in the video is satire. Society wasn't nearly as polarized in the '70s as it is today, but that was when it really started to accelerate. There were the pro-war and anti-war segments of society. The John Birch Society was still going strong. And Milton Friedman's free market philosophies were beginning to take hold with the belief that corporations have no obligation to do good in the world; their only responsibility is to shareholders and to increase profits.

As far as this being a discussion about "human potential," I thought it was a discussion about the Greeks vs. the Romans.

I am sorry Ben. I realize I am very prudish and that does not seem the correct attitude to have the US. However, I prefer Japan's news broadcast to US news broadcast because of the Japanese respect and decorum.

I do not watch the more popular shows that are biased and do not aim for excellence. This effort to achieve excellence is part of my notion of improving the human condition, however, the Greeks did have comedies and I may be a little too extreme. My family certainly thinks I am excessive in my consideration of respect, decorum, and excellence.

Athens's democracy was not one big free for all, but came with social pressure to achieve arte. Arte meaning excellence. I think it was Humes who said there is no reason to fear the liberty of the US because it came with a strong dictate to rule oneself. We taught we protect our liberty by obeying the laws and being well-mannered Now people think the only effort to improve mankind is religion. We do not carry the memory that our liberty and democracy are very much about making good moral decisions and lifting the human potential.

I am out of step with everyone and I will own that. I am hoping to achieve something like a culture that is more respectful and less violent and where people feel good about who they are and what our country is in the US. Our wilderness is gone and we are having a problem being civilized.

 

[Murrmurr]

Can we think that through? This forum has moderators who determine what we can or can not say. They also have the power to ban people who cause trouble, and I don't want to be seen as the person causing trouble as I push the limits of what we talk about.

Is the problem what we talk about or our behavior?

The moderators do not determine what we can and cannot say. They have determined that, after having one for a while, a political forum won't be included on SF. And that is their prerogative.

But your thread is about ancient history, including ancient political philosophies and their evolution. I see a distinction, and, apparently, the moderators do, too.

 

[Shalimar]

And integrated Pagan holidays into Christianity.

I love Pagan holidays.

 

[Sunny]

They're all pagan. Many of the "religious" holidays of Christianity and Judaism obviously have pagan roots. Examples of religious tales being superimposed on clearly pagan festivities:

What do fire, an unusually bright "star," evergreen trees, wreaths, and so on, have to do with the birth of Jesus in spring in the desert?

Hannukah uses a "magic" tale about fire to make some sort of religious point (a lamp burning for 8 days without fuel), when the holiday is actually celebrating a military victory.

Easter: eggs, bunnies, baskets of flowers used to celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus?

We've never travelled very far from our pagan roots.

 

[Tish]

I love Pagan holidays.

Me too

 

[Vida May]

Who was Constantine? Constantine made Christianity the main religion of Rome, and created Constantinople, which became the most powerful city in the world. Emperor Constantine (ca A.D. 280– 337) reigned over a major transition in the Roman Empire—and much more.

Talk of history is exciting to me and I see it as an opportunity to learn. I think when speaking of Constantine's accomplishments we might want to say, his decisions screwed Rome, which was left pretty defenseless when the barbarians invaded, and unless I am mistaken, the whole of old Rome was left in an economic crisis when the power shifted to Constantinople. There is a lot I do not know but I think at one point the Church was paying off barbarians because Rome had an inadequate defense and no power center for government.

 

[Geezer Garage]

Now were talking. Lets get Pagan.

I love Pagan holidays.

 

[Vida May]

They're all pagan. Many of the "religious" holidays of Christianity and Judaism obviously have pagan roots. Examples of religious tales being superimposed on clearly pagan festivities:

What do fire, an unusually bright "star," evergreen trees, wreaths, and so on, have to do with the birth of Jesus in spring in the desert?

Hannukah uses a "magic" tale about fire to make some sort of religious point (a lamp burning for 8 days without fuel), when the holiday is actually celebrating a military victory.

Easter: eggs, bunnies, baskets of flowers used to celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus?

We've never travelled very far from our pagan roots.

Oh man, I am really loving what you said. If we loved our mother earth, I am sure the people seriously threatened by global warming in less technologically advanced places, would welcome the change in how we care for our planet.

In the pre-dynastic period of Egypt and the early cultures of Mesopotamia and Crete, eggs were associated with death and rebirth, as well as with kingship, with decorated ostrich eggs, and representations of ostrich eggs in gold and silver, were commonly placed in graves of the ancient Sumerians and Egyptians as early ...

Easter egg - Wikipedia​

Easter was originally the celebration of Ishtar, the Assyrian and Babylonian goddess of fertility and sex. Her symbols (like the egg and bunny) were and still are fertility and sex symbols (or did you actually think eggs and bunnies had anything to do with the resurrection?)Mar 31, 2013

Beyond Ishtar: The Tradition of Eggs at Easter​

I think life in cities would be greatly improved if there were more areas of nature throughout the city. I think our physical and mental health depends on connecting with nature.

 

[Vida May]

Now were talking. Lets get Pagan.

Do you mean as the Celts? I saw a documentary that presented the Celts as much more moral than the people of Rome. They had better family values and took better of the disabled and women had equal rights.

The eight sacred Celtic holidays of the year​

There are eight special sacred days, holidays, and festivals in Ireland that date back to the old Celtic world.​

Molly Muldoon
@IrishCentral
Jun 21, 2022 https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/sacred-celtic-holidays-ireland

This is not exactly how I imagined this thread going, but it is a wonderful way to come to what I had in mind. Before we got so technologically smart, much of human consciousness is in harmony with nature.

 

[Vida May]

The moderators do not determine what we can and cannot say. They have determined that, after having one for a while, a political forum won't be included on SF. And that is their prerogative.

But your thread is about ancient history, including ancient political philosophies and their evolution. I see a distinction, and, apparently, the moderators do, too.

Seeing the direction this thread has taken, would humanity be better off if we had a better connection with nature?

The Symbols of Justice

Sword: This item symbolizes enforcement and respect, and means that justice stands by its decision and ruling, and is able to take action. The fact that the sword is unsheathed and very visible is a sign that justice is transparent and is not an implement of fear.

The Real Meaning behind the Lady of Justice Statues - Heather & Little​

In eastern religion and philosophy, we see what nature has to do with justice and the consequence of bad decisions in death, not because there is a God who punishes us, but what happens to us is just the consequence of what we say and do.

Socrates and the Roman Statesman Cicero thought when we knew the right thing we would be compelled to do the right thing. Aristotle and some Eastern thinkers thought doing the right thing involved more than just knowing the right thing to do, we also need to know virtues and to practice them so they became habitual. That ability to do this is what separates us from other animals.

 

[fuzzybuddy]

Roman vs. Greek ideologies????? That's sort of an idealized, and distorted view of history. Those democracy loving Greeks had no problem keeping slaves. And the Romans operated a huge socialist state. Rome was more like the corporate world we now live in. I believe Greeks were known for science and knowledge. The Egyptians were known for their spirituality.

 

[Pepper]

Idealization of the past. The trouble with that is it was populated by humans, no better or worse than we are right now.

 

[Della]

Does anyone else see something a little screwy about what we can and can not talk about? Looking for a thread I want to participate in is a little depressing.

A few weeks ago I had a post deleted by the moderator from the abortion thread and I, too, was thinking something was a bit screwy about a huge long discussion of abortion being okay, but any mention of how the need for an abortion arose being off limits. Then I read this, written by Matrix:

" Please avoid posting any mature content, including discussions for health reasons. We've been warned several times by Google, Google ads help pay the bills, and we have to follow their content policy, it can be unreasonable sometimes. They have sent me 5 warning emails this week, despite that I have removed the problematic thread as soon as I got the first email. It's hard to get a hold of a human support."

So, I realized some of these rules are not really the moderator's, but it's Google that can't bear to see any words that refer to what animals might sometimes do with each other to protect the species from extinction.

This is from a thread called, "Forum help and support" It also contains a reminder that, "thread titles should be descriptive and complete."

 

[Vida May]

A few weeks ago I had a post deleted by the moderator from the abortion thread and I, too, was thinking something was a bit screwy about a huge long discussion of abortion being okay, but any mention of how the need for an abortion arose being off limits. Then I read this, written by Matrix:


So, I realized some of these rules are not really the moderator's, but it's Google that can't bear to see any words that refer to what animals might sometimes do with each other to protect the species from extinction.

This is from a thread called, "Forum help and support" It also contains a reminder that, "thread titles should be descriptive and complete."

I do take the disapproval of google seriously, and I also have a big concern about schools allowing students to see some of the other forums I am in. Because we function in a bigger world, we have a lot to think about and part of that is things that really need to be said. It is a hard call and it is awful when we feel like something really needs to be said, and then realize it was deleted or worse, we are on the bad list. When I feel passionate about something, in the past, I have risked being banned. keep thinking if people understood what I am saying they would agree. Well, that doesn't always go well.

My sister told me, Siri and Alexis shut down when someone cusses. That can be harsh when someone is in a bad situation and needs information or help immediately, the stress is what caused the cussing, and the hope of resolving it is cut off.

 

[Vida May]

Roman vs. Greek ideologies????? That's sort of an idealized, and distorted view of history. Those democracy loving Greeks had no problem keeping slaves. And the Romans operated a huge socialist state. Rome was more like the corporate world we now live in. I believe Greeks were known for science and knowledge. The Egyptians were known for their spirituality.

You came close to understanding the difference between techne and episteme and why I want to discuss the subject. What do you think is different from the corporate world we live in now and episteme, a love of math, science, and moral judgment? What some may call the forbidden fruit of knowledge.

What does Rome have to do with Christianity and the destruction of Greek academies? Roman power and glory was not intellectual accomplishments but their use of technology is to be admired.

 

[Vida May]

Idealization of the past. The trouble with that is it was populated by humans, no better or worse than we are right now.

The bases for good moral judgment must be learned and we are capable of that learning. That learning is not idealization. It is learning the arguments made by Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, and others. It is learning such things as "what is justice"? Our Statue of Liberty made by the French and given to the US is the guardian of liberty and justice and those who defend liberty and justice. What are these concepts and how have they influenced our lives?

 

[Patricia]

I do take the disapproval of google seriously, and I also have a big concern about schools allowing students to see some of the other forums I am in. Because we function in a bigger world, we have a lot to think about and part of that is things that really need to be said. It is a hard call and it is awful when we feel like something really needs to be said, and then realize it was deleted or worse, we are on the bad list. When I feel passionate about something, in the past, I have risked being banned. keep thinking if people understood what I am saying they would agree. Well, that doesn't always go well.

My sister told me, Siri and Alexis shut down when someone cusses. That can be harsh when someone is in a bad situation and needs information or help immediately, the stress is what caused the cussing, and the hope of resolving it is cut off.

The senior site is turning out to be a lot crazier than I expected.

 

[Patricia]

A few weeks ago I had a post deleted by the moderator from the abortion thread and I, too, was thinking something was a bit screwy about a huge long discussion of abortion being okay, but any mention of how the need for an abortion arose being off limits. Then I read this, written by Matrix:


So, I realized some of these rules are not really the moderator's, but it's Google that can't bear to see any words that refer to what animals might sometimes do with each other to protect the species from extinction.

This is from a thread called, "Forum help and support" It also contains a reminder that, "thread titles should be descriptive and complete."

So, this is a Google forum?

 

[Vida May]

So, this is a Google forum?

Well, I got curious and googled for information and this is what I found.


Prohibited Content

• Irrelevant Content. Topics and posts must be clear, concise, and related to support for the specific Google product that is the focus of that forum.
• Spam. ...
• Nudity and sexually explicit material. ...
• Harassment or violent behavior. ...
• Hate speech. ...
• Impersonation. ...
• Private and confidential information. ...
• Copyright.

More items...

Google Help Communities Content Policy​

 

[Patricia]

Well, I got curious and googled for information and this is what I found.


Prohibited Content

• Irrelevant Content. Topics and posts must be clear, concise, and related to support for the specific Google product that is the focus of that forum.
• Spam. ...
• Nudity and sexually explicit material. ...
• Harassment or violent behavior. ...
• Hate speech. ...
• Impersonation. ...
• Private and confidential information. ...
• Copyright.

More items...

Google Help Communities Content Policy​

Possibly the fact I wasn't using the Google search engine when I found this forum prevented me from linking the two, if that is the case.