Cenegenics: Scam or Legitimate?

The sooner hormones are started the better they than can bring weak cell groups up to snuff, thus preventing future problems. Cenegenics is not the only game in town, they just advertise a lot, and yes they can help (as well as the many other BIHR prescribers). They may target man boobs, but they also treat woman (unless they have changed policy)

anyway it is highly unlikely that even 10% of the hits have read all 12 pages..
 

rt3 said:
as suggested in another post in the health section, try to find colloidal iron, as it is absorbed far, far better and doesn't cause constipation.
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I think I have made people confused. Polycythemia has increased total body iron. Hgb/ Hct and red cell number is increased. MCH and MCHC are not low, nor is ferritin. I would have to DECREASE iron intake, not increase it.

As I said, I have decreased my iron intake, and when I went to donate blood, I found that my Hgb and Hct are stable in the normal range. They had not increased since my last donation.

That gets rid of the annoying side effect I was having on Cenegenics. My thyroid function tests are normal. I am not a believer in taking t3 if my TFT's are normal, nor do I have any hypothyroid sx's

BTW, my age is not in the 30-40 range. I am 65, but I must say that on Cenegenics, I now feel as though I am in the 30-40 year old range.

Newly Old
 
That makes sense Newly Old, I was wondering about that too, because I knew that eldery people had too high of an iron content in their systems rather than too low. I have been using an "iron-free" multi vitamin/mineral supplement for years now, since I am menopausal. I have also heard that the only way that men can lower iron counts that are too high, are through blood donations.
 

elderly people have too low iron, usually caused by intestinal bleeding.

Polycythemia Vera is a myeloproliferative disease that originates in the blood marrow when the red blood cells are being formed - it is usually a genetic cause/mutation.
Testosterone therapy alone could never do this…. without genetic modifications… at least I doubt it.
in patients with iron overload - hemachromatosis - where crit is high - is actually the most common genetic disease in the world. Yet, testosterone therapy in these individuals is safe and doesn’t cause the crit to go up in this case

anemia due to low iron is not the same as low iron in the electron transport system (cytochrome, NADH)Its polycethemia vera if the hematocrit gets above 52% ( A WHO Criteria).


the standard for TFT was changed last year, are you going by the new one? if not you are low. (WHO criteria)
the important issue is the release of iron from stores. In terms of treating “Iron deficiency anemia,” you won’t see a real significant bump in hematocrit/hemoglobin clinically (or it will just be recurrent) until you give them Vitamin A - no matter how much iron you pump into them.
 
Newly Old--- did you smoke once upon a time, or still- there is a "double hit factor from this and the genetic stuff", If you feel like 40 know after starting hormones, think how you would have felt it starting at 40?
 
rt3 said:
elderly people have too low iron, usually caused by intestinal bleeding.

Polycythemia Vera is a myeloproliferative disease that originates in the blood marrow when the red blood cells are being formed - it is usually a genetic cause/mutation.
Testosterone therapy alone could never do this…. without genetic modifications… at least I doubt it.
in patients with iron overload - hemachromatosis - where crit is high - is actually the most common genetic disease in the world. Yet, testosterone therapy in these individuals is safe and doesn’t cause the crit to go up in this case

anemia due to low iron is not the same as low iron in the electron transport system (cytochrome, NADH)Its polycethemia vera if the hematocrit gets above 52% ( A WHO Criteria).


the standard for TFT was changed last year, are you going by the new one? if not you are low. (WHO criteria)
the important issue is the release of iron from stores. In terms of treating “Iron deficiency anemia,” you won’t see a real significant bump in hematocrit/hemoglobin clinically (or it will just be recurrent) until you give them Vitamin A - no matter how much iron you pump into them.
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The doctor side of my has to jump in. If a patient has iron deficiency anemia, a significant increase in hemogloblin/hematocrit occurs by 3 weeks of treatment. Reticulocytosis becomes high (reticulocytes are the newly made blood cells being produced to fix the anemia).

But to continue-

Low iron in the electron transport system is fun to talk about, but is irrelevant in the context of iron and anemia. The iron content in mitochondria is not measurable in patients, and increasing iron intake in any form has not been shown to increase iron in mitochondria. I assume you are making reference to the concept of free radicals and aging. Again, this is irrelevent to the issue of iron and blood count.

Excess iron is harmful and can be a problem in older men. That is why iron is not included in MVI's for older males.

If there is low iron due to gastrointestinal blood loss, it is not an IRON problem, it is a GASTROINTESINAL problem and in the elderly is CANCER of the colon until proven otherwise.

Tesoterone ABOSULUTELY CAN increase blood count in normal healthy males.

Polycythema Vera CAN be genetic, but this is again irreleveant. ALL types of polycythemia call for a REUCTION in iron.

Hemachromatosis is NOT always genetic. There are several no-genetic causes of hemachromatosis. ALL require REDUCTION of iron. Testosterone must NOT be given to a patient with hemochromatosis. (Hemochroamatosis cause liver dysfunction and testosterone is contraindiocated if a patient has hepatic dysfunction)

But I am not here to argue medicine. I originally posted to give my personal experience as I do the Cenegenics program from my start in September 2013. And to correct assumptions recently made about me- I am 65, a non-smoker with no significant health problems. You can read my original thread titled something like, My Experience with Cenegenics- for those who are interested" for more background, reasons for doing it, etc.)

My recent post was to say that all was well except my rising blood count on testosterone. I donate monthy to keep it normal, but now it has stabilized. I assume that is because I have reached a steady state at my replacement tesosterone levels. Increased blood count (hemoglobin/hematocrit) is a known potential side effect of testosterone, no matter what anyone else has said, and I, like another who went onto testosterone, showed an increase in hgb and hct shortly after treatments began. we both have now stablized.

I will continue to report my experiences on Cenegenics including the negatives if people are intersted. That was the SOLE purpose of my recent post- to share a negative that I was experienceing.

I am not posting to argue. There are next to no threads by someone reporting a real life experience on Cenegenics. I hoped to give first person honest info if people were curious.

At this point, it seems like the thread is only attracting those who like to debate. If there is no interest in my first person experience, I will jump off leaving this by saying that 7 months into the program, I have had excellent results, feel great, have great labs, inflammatory markers no longer elevated, growth hormone level up to normal (without taking growth hormone- as my doctor predicted would happen on the program), cholesterol from 220 to 140 with excellent profile. The only major problems have been the temporary increased hemoglobin and the HIGH COST.

Newly Old
 
knightofalbion -- when someone sees Cenegenics come up in a Google search the website that is very active with this topic comes up, so people click on it and the come here. when that happens the advertising comes up and the people who are doing this web site smile a lot.

Newly old you didn't answer whether you smoke or not.

have a clinical pathologists that disagrees with you on several of the issues, however I am glad you responded

you material on test. is very outdated and not if considered applies mostly to the injectable form. (which you didn't mention)

regardless of what causes the anemia it is still there, your categorizing the disease conditions by terminologies that can be argued from either side. (this usually occurs because different schools of medicine have different lines of thought about the same topic, to say nothing of the fact that virtually any topic in medicine will be argued from the point of view of that persons specialty, and even again if their background is pharmacology, bioengineering -- you get the point )

loss of blood from intestinal sources may be called cancer, and provide a pathway for the clinician to investigate this as a possibility, but do to the vast numbers involved doesn't mean anything in the testosterone discussion

confusion of two issues, here, prescribing of testosterone under the old outdated medical guidelines, and repeat that Cenegenics uses a very high amount of injectable test. as compared to other prescribers in the HRT industry. the other issue is your outdated information on the role of electron transport. Because Labcorp, ARUP, and others do not provide lab results, doesn't begin to describe the situation. ARUP will build a test for anything you want, if you have the money.

anyway it does no good to argue medicine, and now we have two doctors disagree (where have you heard that before?) on the role and such for iron, which brings me to THE POINT.

Your reporting of experience about Cenegenics has questionable credibility, to the readers, just because you are a doctor.
My guess, from being on the inside, as to the reason no actual patients have written in this forum as you have volunteered to do-- is this-- it is simply that Cenegenics clientele is very exclusive, most are in the upper 0.5% income range, and have neither the time nor the desire to communicate with the common folk.

sort of like Michael Bloomberg promoting gun control, but can afford body guards, but won't answer any questions about the contradiction. (I know its off topic)
 
probably should add here, that Cenegenics (since this is what the original post is about anyway) had changed pharmacies (you didn't think they built their own stuff did you?) changed 2 times in the last year. I suspect they also changed their target market, to include a larger, less specific (disposable income) group, because of changes in their advertisement at the start of this year, perhaps anticipating a larger production output from their source. Hey --- good business practice.
 
almost forgot-- electron transport is very interesting to talk about-- its whats happin baby!
 
I am sorry. I thought I had answered the smoking question. I have never smoked. I am 65 years old and a very active practicing physician. I am every up to date on the medical literature, including the Endocrine Society's Most recent guidelines on diagnosing and treating low testosterone.

As fas as the business side of Cenegenics, yes, I am aware of change of pharmacies and the issues with the particular pharmacist who was the key supplier. I am also aware of their business model, marketing, products and target market. I do not like the fact that they developed and recently release a skin lotion to reverse aging skin. Very expensive, of course.

I am sorry to repeat myself to those who know all of this from my 8 months of posting. I am not here to debate the logic of age management, compare approaches, debate hormones, doses, routes and intervals of injection, etc. I am reporting my PERSONAL ongoing experience. That means it is heavily OPINIONATED. These are MY perceptions of what is happening to ME. It is unbiased in terms of my having no interest, personal or financial, of how one uses my "diary." "Credibility" is not my concern. It is the reader's choice if they believe me. I am clear what is my opinion and what is not. At the outset, I gave my background, including my health history. I said I am a physician. If people do not believe physicians are honest, then I will not be credible to them. But does being a physician MAKE me not credible?? In my posts, I have given my opinions and various aspects of my program. I have complained about the costs of the program and the cost of the meds. I have even given the cost of buying testosterone at the pharmacy. I have talked of the reluctance of my internist to deal with testosterone issues. I have told of my experiences with the diet. My responses, physical, emotional, functional and economic. But..

The one thing I have not discussed is this: I started by saying that I would be posting a running report on my personal experience that would start after my first visit. I gave my background. I gave disclaimers. I gave brutally honest information. A lot has been criticism of the program. I said from the outset that I was posting because I thought some might be interested at reading a first person account in real time warts and all. And the surprise? I am wasting my time arguing with people about electron transport, how polycythemia is NOT just a genetic disorder as was said, but is often a secondary condition, that iron should NOT be given when someone has a high hemoglobin- etc etc etc.

If you do not want to hear my real time progress reports, fine. Challenge my CREDIBILITY because I am a physician?? I do not know who is reading or why. I am doing this as a "reporter." My goal is to give HONEST information about what I am doing, what is happening to my body and my life as a result and to give some personal feelings about what I am going through. I did not tell of my rising hemoglobin to spark a debate on electron transport and how it affects mitochondria vs erythropoiesis. I told it to tell how it make me feel uncomfortable knowing this was happening despite knowing it was not a health concern.

If you can find any other person who has posted a real time reporting of their experience on Cenegenics from the onset, then read it. I am done debating peripheral nonsense.

Newly Old
 
thanks for the synopsis, the brutally honest part, is on the heavy side--- most people are not in the loop part of physicians being sick (really human)-- its the "Physician heal thyself thing". At this point the inquisitive reader would want to know, "if this guy is a doc. why doesn't he do it himself, since he is, (by his own admission) current on everything? what the reader doesn't know is that testosterone is a schedule III drug and you can't prescribe it for yourself. honest, probably, brutally that's a bit strong.

I really don't care if you choose to debate or not, I will still be "reporting" just like you. Your "Well then (hands on hips)" attitude doesn't mean kakka to me. I have found so many errors in the "Journal of Endocrinology" doing meta analysis, I don't want to go into it either (gets boring).I am Not challenging your credibility simply giving the readers the other side of the story. Anyone getting medical attention should get several options.

Todays medicine is a options decision tree that runs thru dollars on the one side and legal liability on the other. The answer is chosen more by default than "results dependent on initial conditions". Hormones effect every cell in the body, and are natural to the body, the very act of even calling them a drug is an abortion. Putting them in the same " lab results defines the practice" is trying to find somewhere to dispose of the abortion, (blame/game).

If you don't want to review or talk energy production, or biochemical pathways, don't.
 
adding- "The only absolutes are there are no absolutes". Nobody really gets to "own" the definitions except the FDA. Everybody "accepts" such and such guidelines to facilitate the process.
 
Newly Old & rt3, I know very little, next to nothing, about your subject of discussion, but I have found it interesting. I have no idea of who is right or wrong, but I'm learning a lot about what some of it means. That alone makes your debate worth much to the average lay person such as myself. Thank you both for putting a little clarification on the subject.
 
Let me review my situation. That may be helpful.

I am a healthy 65 year old MD. I spent the last 30 years being somewhat overweight, out of shape, feeling more easily fatigued in recent years. I never smoked, rarely have a drink but loved sweets. I have never had a health problem other than torn cartillage in my knee. I am an older father, having one in high school and the other in college. I work 6 days and 2 evenings a week.

I realized that I was getting more tired mid afternoon, and had less energy. Since I am approaching an age where people often slow down, I decided I wanted to do everything I could within reason to maintain my health. I chose Cenegenics because it has a comprehensive program that includes nutrition and supplements, medical, including hormone replacement when medically necessary, and exercise. I had failed a lifetime of diets and attempts to exercise. I felt "ready" to give one last chance to change to a healthy lifestyle.

I found no good alternatives. I believe that testosterone therapy is appropriate for those whose testosterone is measured to be low by a reference lab and who has symptoms consistent with low testosterone. Symptoms have to correct on the testosterone for me to be comfortable that the diagnosis is significant low T. As a physician, I have researched the subject and am convinced that it must be done by a doctor with expertise in hormone optimization and who will monitor closely with lab tests. Just taking testosterone is dangerous because it will alter the levels of other hormones and can have other adverse effects, such as making the blood to thick.

So, my first step was to get tested by my internist. One test had me low. Another at a reference lab had my T at the lowest level that was in the "normal" range. That meant I was lower than 95% of men my age. My internist would not put me on T because I was in the normal range. I argued that it might not be normal for me. I should at least be brought to the middle of the normal range to see if it corrected my symptoms. He said he does not treat if it is in the normal range, even if I am lower than 95% of males my age. I found that other internists also would not prescribe testosterone. I also think most do not have the additional expertise in this area.

The only traditional MD's who I found to be doing hormone optimization were "concierge" doctors. These are doctors who decided to drop all insurance plans and serve a smaller number of patients. The patients are given more time, have 24 hr access to the doctor, but have to pay to join the practice. It is common to have to pay $5000 for the entrance health examination. Insurance covers nothing.

The next option would be "complimentary" doctors. They say that they emphasize wellness, disease prevention and total health analysis. That includes testosterone and often other hormones. The ones who purchase their own radio talk shows often say that lab tests can be normal, yet miss the need for hormone supplementation. But, they also say that they have to do a comprehensive evaluation with pages of lab tests including allergies, heavy metals, etc. They say that the body often is at the wrong acidity and that the acidity can be changed by diet. Many promote their own supplements saying that the other complementary doctors use inferior ones or ones that do not get absorbed well. One doctor says that medicines that are in capsules that are from China (the emply capsules, not the meds) are no good because who knows what the capules are made of.

Complementaty doctors were not on my list of options because I believe a lot of what they are doing and prescribing is useless at best, and some of what they say about illnesses and the body is blatantly wrong. Again, we are talking many thousands of dollars, ultimately can be more than the concierge MD.


Cenegenics is very much a business, in my opinion. But my doctor is very well educated in the field, and was a higly regarded physician among his peers and patients prior to going into age management medicine. Tesosterone is being prescribed and monitored. The nutrition plan and exercise work for me because the testosterone allows for the workouts to have quicker noticable benefit, and the fat has melted away on the nutrition plan. My diet is healthy, and I never crave sweets,

So, for me, the total package of the Cenegenics program has worked beyond my wildest expectations. I think the cost is astronomical, and I have to buy my supplements through them at a substantial cost. But I don't like the fact that they are such a "business" and have branced out into nutritional and supplement products in an inline store. They even have a skin restorative treatment to make your face look younger. I think it is over $200 for the kit.

But, it has worked for me and is the only one I trust medically because of the doctors and their training. I wish it weren't so EXPENSIVE or of traditional MD's would start doing this.

Newly Old
 
Newly Old said:
... But I don't like the fact that they are such a "business" and have branced out into nutritional and supplement products in an inline store. They even have a skin restorative treatment to make your face look younger. I think it is over $200 for the kit.
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Shouldn't that tell you something about trusting this company? Yes, I realize you're happy with the results, but bottom-line, do you really trust them?

I mean, hell - I could get the same skin rejuvie-goo from a late-night infomercial for 4 E-Z payments of only $9.99 ...

And WHY have they branched out into supplements and magic potions? Because that's where the money is. Not where the desire to help people live fuller, healthier lives is - where the money is.

You like doing business with people like that?
 
I trust a company like Cenegenics more than I trust the "complementary medicine" doctors who are currently the alternative. Most important is I trust the doctor who is treating me. I can give you details on the doctor, but I assure you he is first rate and studied age management medicine for years before joining Cenegenics. He also did a great deal of research into their treatment guidelines and the science behind them.

From what the complementary doctors say on their talk shows, it is clear that I do not trust what they do at all.

Unfortunately, medicine has become business drive. Control of medicine was taken away from the doctors who now are now controlled by the insurance companies. Hospitals have been merging, becoming health "systems" that heavily advertise to consumers. Under Obamacare, hospitals are supposed to develop their own organization that has all the community doctors, specialists, labs, X-rays, ER's etc that provide 100% of the care their system. Each system or accountability" organization will then sell their comprehensive network like an insurance company sells policies. Private doctors are now being asked to sign up with the network that their hospital is developing. All will be in a system that is required to monitor performance which may include things such as how long a patient is hospitalized for a given illness, or how much is spent on testing and medicines. In my area, one medical center does not admit people with appendicitis into the hospital. In most cases, the patient goes from the ER to the OR and is sent home 6 hours later. In my opinion, medical care is being brought down to the lowest common denominator.

How does this apply to my situation with Cenegenics? Doctors who accept insurance are unable to bill and be paid for age management. Insurance companies don't cover it, and doctors are prohibited by their contracts with the insurance company from charging the patient directly. They can do a basic physical each year, but the expensive lab testing is not covered. Nor are the follow-up visits and monitoring of treatment. So that leaves only the physicians who decide to have a practice that takes no insurance.

A doctor cannot open a practice without accepting insurance unless it is a "concierge" practice that can attract enough patients willing to spend $5000 to join. And insurance has poor or no coverage for "out of network" doctors. So you have the concierge practices and the complementary practices which also cost a fortune, but their costs are for the extensive testing and treatment of debatable conditions such as the acidity of the body, toxins from the environment, hormone problems that cannot be detected by traditional MD's and the selling of the supplements, diet aids, treatments, etc.

If a doctor wants to practice age management, Cenegenics offers a comprehensive program that has in place their nutritionists, exercise physiologists, testing for bone density, doppler carotid studies, cardiopulmonary function, etc, with the staff to do the tests. They also have age management seminars that are open to all physicians (at a cost of thousands) and required for MD's who want to join. So a doctor can practice age management and not have to see hundreds of patients to cover expenses.

So, the quality of the MD is what matters the most. Cenegenics is a company out to make a profit. That is where their products for the public come into play. They also have to market to attract new patients.

I do not like marketing. The television and radio ads for hospitals and their services nauseate me. A patient tells how he traveled from Europe to go to a particular doctor and hospital because they were tops with the Cyberknife. Where you are treated first makes all the difference if you have cancer. That is the tagline for a major hospital for cancer treatment. Yes, they are excellent, but they really push their advertising. Little Jimmy thought he would never play soccer again, but our special operation saved his leg. Patient after patient telling their sob stories and how it was that one special hospital that made all the difference. Of course, it seems like every hospital is now advertising that they are THE hospital for you.

There are Urgent Care centers owned and run by national corporations. You get seen quickly but that's it. You cannot call the doctor if you have a problem during the night. They do not have a doctor on call. There is no emergency number, just instructions to call 911 or go to the nearest emergency room. But they offer a fast food-like product. They do not know your medical history, have no access to you medical records but will see you quickly. You pay the bill, get the Rx and your done.

Do I like that Cenegenics is going for profits by selling things? No. Do I like how health care has become a business, under the control of business people? No.

But the bottom line is this. My Cenegenics physician can provide me with excellent care within the structure of Cenegenics. There are very few alternatives.

Newly old
 
SifuPhil said:
Shouldn't that tell you something about trusting this company? Yes, I realize you're happy with the results, but bottom-line, do you really trust them?

I mean, hell - I could get the same skin rejuvie-goo from a late-night infomercial for 4 E-Z payments of only $9.99 ...

And WHY have they branched out into supplements and magic potions? Because that's where the money is. Not where the desire to help people live fuller, healthier lives is - where the money is.

You like doing business with people like that?
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By the way, to change the subject but just a bit. When I call an insurance company to get approval to order and MRI, for example, I often ask to speak directly with a medical director. But after many discussions, medical directors told me that all they can do is enter the symptoms and details into the computer program. The program either approves or denies it. They are not using their medical judgement to make any decisions. They are merely entering data! Sometimes they say that they will try to enter the information a different way to trick the computer into approving it.

That is medical care today.

Newly old
 
whoa--super medicine--its not that complicated,

when compounding pharmacy momentum got going in the late 80's it was pushed in a large extent by hormone replacement therapy. this also came about as new studies emerged indicating that the cause of a lot of the problems were synthetic hormones. these two opportunities came together to the originator of Cenegenics (who can still be found in pictures standing next to his Bentley on the web) and a few other folks, one of which is Cenegenics current supplier. As the market grew, and this "magic knowledge" filtered down thru the pharmacy schools, many smaller pharmacies started specialty shops in order to survive. About this time, late 90's, the big guys (Walgreens) got worried they were missing out and started offering this. today the name has been remolded to include old age management, in just about any combination of wording that can be marketable. This combination of specialties had the advantage of closing the big pharm drug companies out of the picture, as none of the key ingredients could be patented.

Along with this came the Nurse Practioners, weight lose clinics etc., and everything else to cut into the basic Cenegenics market, which is national, as opposed to locals. The programs (which I'll get to in a moment) were creating many new prescribers, and suppliers cutting up the pie. Today there are many of these smaller prescribers, Nurse practioners, etc who are very knowledgeable and in some cases, I have personally seen, have more knowledge than Physicians in Hormone Therapy (they have less peer pressure to contend with, as Hormone Replacement therapy is not generally accepted in main stream medicine.)

With the new programs teaching age management, came the business angle of teaching the prescribers to set up a business practice.

Lets talk about Trust and what it really is. I'm not talking about some bullshit Franklin Covey Speed of Trust. Ever see the "Beautiful Mind " a movie about a guy by the name of Nash who got a Nobel prize for Economics. Basically he is talking about game theory and TRUST. Feel free to GOOGLE, as its a bit deep, but involves things like tit for tat, prisoners dilemma and forms the basic conditions by which we form associations.

When someone uses the word TRUST ask what there vested interests are (motives)

Newly Old has given a very good description of Cenegenics modus operandi, and some of the problems he incurs getting "medicine" done today. There are many groups and institutions that show docs how to set a concierge practice, at a much lower cost than joining Cene. (just for the information).

How does this help the normal person who needs hormone therapy? Not major medical stuff. Corporate medicine, is and will continue will go after the high ticket items, just to pay for their machines etc. So What? Cenegenics still gets a volume discount from their suppliers they don't pass on. Its called "Economies of Scale".
Even if they have a face cream that contains every rare ingredient on the face of the earth, --- its not made in the US, (probably) at a 100th of the cost in pick a Pacific Rim location. If you got the money and feel the product is worth it---that's a different story.


Hormones are not some recently developed super drug. Everyone past a certain age, (youth) shows a decline within some statistical parameter for that age group. Most if not all lab tests are based on that, and traditional prescribing. Do you want your hormones to be in that age group? (If your answer is yes, then you are in the group that accepts aging as a natural condition just before the horizontal one that becomes permanent and are not scared of dying. If your answer is No you want the same levels as a younger person, and means that you are scared of missing all that living) your choice.
 
Fear of dying ... that's it, you hit it on the nose.

And if a person is afraid of dying then they have problems far too deep for a pill or potion to cure.

And, of course, they are sitting ducks for these conglomerates.
 
yes that is exactly it and to some degree you just did the same thing although not maliciously . hormones are not pills or cures (drugs) they are natural body stuff. (and plants).

its when we let the conglomerates call them drugs we lose control, they gain control etc. etc.
 
Do you accept osteoporosis as a natural aging condition, or should it be treated so that older people are less likely to suffer debilitating fractures from simply tripping and falling to the floor?

Newly Old
 
rt3 said:
yes that is exactly it and to some degree you just did the same thing although not maliciously . hormones are not pills or cures (drugs) they are natural body stuff. (and plants).
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Natural body stuff? :confused:

I had some of that after my first trip to Mexico - luckily it went away on its own.

Hormones may indeed be "natural" (the non-synthetic ones, I mean), but they are still marketed as a "cure". And it's a cure for something that isn't even a disease, but they have been successful in making people believe that it is.

its when we let the conglomerates call them drugs we lose control, they gain control etc. etc.
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You mean like with cannabis? Yes, I agree.

Newly Old said:
Do you accept osteoporosis as a natural aging condition, or should it be treated so that older people are less likely to suffer debilitating fractures from simply tripping and falling to the floor?

Newly Old
Click to expand...

Unfortunately you chose an example in which I have some experience. I've spent my life teaching people how NOT to trip and fall, thus obviating the need for magic beans to treat the condition.
 
SifuPhil said:
Natural body stuff? :confused:

I had some of that after my first trip to Mexico - luckily it went away on its own.

Hormones may indeed be "natural" (the non-synthetic ones, I mean), but they are still marketed as a "cure". And it's a cure for something that isn't even a disease, but they have been successful in making people believe that it is.



You mean like with cannabis? Yes, I agree.



Unfortunately you chose an example in which I have some experience. I've spent my life teaching people how NOT to trip and fall, thus obviating the need for magic beans to treat the condition.
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So I throw out the question to all the other recent debaters in this thread:


Do you consider osteoporosis a natural part of aging that people should accept as aging or should it be treated?

Newly Old
 
I posed this question to everyone, but I am curious about your opinion since you talk about the concept of accepting "aging as a natural condition."

Do you consider osteoporosis a normal part of aging or do you think it should be treated?

Newly Old.
 

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