Did we really have to drop atomic bombs on Japan?

[imp]

My Sage Observation

All who argue against those sadly misinformed or misunderstanding, are entering a dead-end street. imp

 

[Josiah]

I confess reading about the Manhattan Project really has me fascinated and here I'm talking about the science, the engineering, and the management of such a Herculean undertaking. I just downloaded the Kindle edition of The Making of the Atomic Bomb, Richard Rhodes’s Pulitzer Prize-winning book which details the science, the people, and the socio-political realities that led to the development of the atomic bomb.

 

[Shalimar]

We are reduced to this because we disagree? So much for debate. Hmmm. Disappointing, gentlelmen. Puppies indeed. As for being in the Pacific, one of my aunts, a nurse, was interred. I have seen the keloid scars on her back. Until her death several years ago, she spoke out unflinchingly against what she considered to be the anathema of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings. She also attended many Hiroshima memorials, where she spoke in fluent Japanese to weeping survivors, who kissed ner hands. What an orator she was! Interesting she was able to find compassion, where others find it more challenging.

 

[Underock1]

We are reduced to this because we disagree? So much for debate. Hmmm. Disappointing, gentlelmen. Puppies indeed. As for being in the Pacific, one of my aunts, a nurse, was interred. I have seen the keloid scars on her back. Until her death several years ago, she spoke out unflinchingly against what she considered to be the anathema of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings. She also attended many Hiroshima memorials, where she spoke in fluent Japanese to weeping survivors, who kissed ner hands. What an orator she was! Interesting she was able to find compassion, where others find it more challenging.

Let's review here. I've been described as "inhuman", incapable of compassion, and so mentally atrophied as to be incapable of judgement. So much for debate.

Shalimar, I return the disappointment. Don't tell me I have no compassion. Nowhere in my posts, will you find me jumping for joy because we dropped the bomb on "those dirty Japs, and they got just what they deserved." I have said over and over again, that it was a terrible thing, and a real tragedy that so many innocents had to die. My complaint is having Americans portrayed as "inhuman" by people who raised the term to a whole new level. I keep bringing up Nanking, and the topic gets swept under the rug, because it doesn't fit the popularized image of the Japanese as victims. It was a far more horrific experience than the bomb by many magnitudes. There were thousands more killed in whatever manner could be conceived to cause the most suffering. Far from being unavoidable casualties from a bomb blast, it was deliberate premeditated murder. If you haven't already, do a little reading on the subject, or better yet, go past the warnings about graphic images, and view a few pictures. When you stop throwing up, come back and tell me that the bomb was more inhuman. Why isn't there a memorial service in Nanking every year? Could it be that its O.K to kill Chinese? I repeat; Nanking is acknowledged to be the single worst atrocity of WWII. It was just one of a continuous stream committed by the Japanese during WWII...and the perpetrators get to call us inhuman? I repeat; I love today's Japanese. Better citizens of the world than we are by far, but they are not the Japanese of WWII.

 

[BobF]

Not an impressive post by any means, just cut and paste. And I understand your point WhatInThe, just as I've come to understand that all governments are in the business of expediency or 'whatever works'. Even my own government, my 'peace keeping' government has been involved in a couple of things that I personally feel are despicable and fall far outside the reputation that we Canadians would like to feel that we project. But it is what it is right and the only thing left for me is to look forward to the day when I truly no longer have to care about any of this....until I have to again and maybe then I'll pick a different time or a different planet! Toodle-loo folks and enjoy the afternoon!

Sorry Debby, you just have no idea of what I wrote if you think it was all cut and paste. Every word I wrote came directly from my memory of the WWII ending and the differences it made in my life in my home town and state.

Actually pretty close to Canada at that time too. There are plenty of pretty nice folks in Canada. Most of them in fact as I remember, but some apparently are way off stride from the rest of their country. Now that I am living in southern Arizona I find many Canadians here also. All I have met are pretty nice folks. The ones I meet here are from the west coast area, east of Vancouver Canada. Lots of nice people I have met visiting Canada in several western provinces but not much east of what I visited east of Detroit in Canadian area of Quebec, and those that are now sharing the US.

 

[Shalimar]

With respect, I think I will pass on the atrocity pictures. I have witnessed far too many dead children as it is. Pics do not induce vomiting, but they do make me weep. I weep for all the tortured/murdered innocents, in and out of war. J'accuse all the monsters who perpetuate such horror. It is never excusable, however politically expedient. For some of us it is personal. It should be for us all. I think I need to exit this thread before I need to therapise myself. Pax.

 

[Shalimar]

Bob, I am pleased that you have met some nice Canadians from my neck of the woods. We left coasters are an independent bunch for sure. Individualists to the core. Outspoken, but loyal beyond belief. Have a good weekend in sunny Arizona!

 

[Underock1]

With respect, I think I will pass on the atrocity pictures. I have witnessed far too many dead children as it is. Pics do not induce vomiting, but they do make me weep. I weep for all the tortured/murdered innocents, in and out of war. J'accuse all the monsters who perpetuate such horror. It is never excusable, however politically expedient. For some of us it is personal. It should be for us all. I think I need to exit this thread before I need to therapise myself. Pax.

This inhuman, compassionless, mentally atrophied fellow human being, weeps with you. :rose:

 

[imp]

Change the pace a bit: Not often mentioned, as a young man Emperor Hirohito attended college in the United States before the War. He travelled extensively, seeing the nearly endless agricultural ability, industrial might, city after city having huge manufacturing capability.

His recommendation to Japan's Military Leaders was that to win a war against the United States was an impossibility. Of course, his opinion was ignored. A much smarter man he was, than the true leaders of Japan. imp

 

[AZ Jim]

This from a yahoo site discussing the atom bombing of Japan:

"When one enters the Hiroshima Peace Museum, he is met with a very confusing statement: "In the morning of 7 August 1945, the United States dropped the world's first nuclear bomb on Hiroshima..." Nothing is mentioned of the Japanese control of Korea and China, the rape of Nanking, the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the concentration camps throughout Asia where many soldiers and civilians died of the thousands of young women who were taken from their families (some as young as 12) to serve as "comfort women" for the Japanese military. Even as late as today, the Japanese history books cannot describe Japan's horror of Asia for the 30+ years before Hiroshima. I lived in Japan for nearly 7 years and the Japanese people of today are among the greatest in the world. Unfortunately, they are still confused why so many people dislike them. Until the Japanese government can come clean about its horrible history, they will keep alive this debate. Regardless how much the people want to believe, the Japanese were never victims during WWII. Unfortunately, however, they have been victims of their government's refusal to be honest since the end of the war."

 

[Underock1]

This from a yahoo site discussing the atom bombing of Japan:

"When one enters the Hiroshima Peace Museum, he is met with a very confusing statement: "In the morning of 7 August 1945, the United States dropped the world's first nuclear bomb on Hiroshima..." Nothing is mentioned of the Japanese control of Korea and China, the rape of Nanking, the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the concentration camps throughout Asia where many soldiers and civilians died of the thousands of young women who were taken from their families (some as young as 12) to serve as "comfort women" for the Japanese military. Even as late as today, the Japanese history books cannot describe Japan's horror of Asia for the 30+ years before Hiroshima. I lived in Japan for nearly 7 years and the Japanese people of today are among the greatest in the world. Unfortunately, they are still confused why so many people dislike them. Until the Japanese government can come clean about its horrible history, they will keep alive this debate. Regardless how much the people want to believe, the Japanese were never victims during WWII. Unfortunately, however, they have been victims of their government's refusal to be honest since the end of the war."

Thank you, Jim. That's all I'm trying to say. Compassion for the dead innocents? Of course. Being declared inhuman by those responsible for the grossest inhumanity? Not acceptable.

 

[Underock1]

Just a post script. There is a memorial museum to the Nanking Massacre. Quite a large, depressing one, in fact. The first memorial service was held last year. The two governments are trying to improve relationships for economic reasons, but Japan's refusal to accept responsibility for the atrocity and many others in WWII is causing a lot of resentment among the Chinese public.

 

[imp]

"The Making of the Atomic Bomb, Richard Rhodes’s Pulitzer Prize-winning book"

Regarding the book above: I have read it through, cover to cover, perhaps three times now. I use it to refer back when some particular technical detail escapes me. Much of it's content is detail, carefully researched, apparently, for it is quite difficult to search out any of his facts and come up with opposing results. The descriptive portrayals of important people involved in the Manhattan Project is both vivid, and humorous, at times.

I highly recommend the book. imp

 

[Debby]

Sorry Debby, you just have no idea of what I wrote if you think it was all cut and paste. Every word I wrote came directly from my memory of the WWII ending and the differences it made in my life in my home town and state.

Actually pretty close to Canada at that time too. There are plenty of pretty nice folks in Canada. Most of them in fact as I remember, but some apparently are way off stride from the rest of their country. Now that I am living in southern Arizona I find many Canadians here also. All I have met are pretty nice folks. The ones I meet here are from the west coast area, east of Vancouver Canada. Lots of nice people I have met visiting Canada in several western provinces but not much east of what I visited east of Detroit in Canadian area of Quebec, and those that are now sharing the US.

Bob you've lost track of how this conversation went.

I said (or someone else did) that the US imported Nazi war criminals to do scientific and doctoral work for America including working on the bombs I believe.
You asked for a list.
I cut and pasted two links that proved it (Operation Paperclip) happened and one of them included names of individual war criminals. #64
You said 'that's an impressive list....' #65
I said, 'not impressive at all, just cut and paste' #68

And now here you are telling me I have no idea how much thought you put into your post, and not simply cut and paste......and now I'm getting the impression that your inference about some Canadians (not being as nice as the ones you've met) is being directed at me, maybe Shalimar and Cookie. Seeing as how I haven't met you except for here in a couple threads, it's easy to see where my understanding of that comment is going.

Or am I wrong? Because while I am living in Eastern Canada right now, I was born in Calgary and lived 90% of my life just outside of Vancouver and will be going 'home' as soon as this house sells. So which is it? Am I an ignorant ass or one of the nice ones?

 

[imp]

"...the US imported Nazi war criminals to do scientific and doctoral work for America including working on the bombs I believe."

Few Nazi leaders or criminals for that matter, were actually scientists. The most dedicated and scientifically-trained minds originated in Budapest, not Germany. In fact, our FBI often referred to them, while working on the Manhattan Project, as "The Hungarian Conspiracy". The scientists, Oppenheimer, Szilard, Bethe, Slotin, unanimously resented the continual spying on their efforts by the cops. All of the important minds working there had already obtained their Doctorate Degrees previous to coming to America. imp

 

[Debby]

'...Operation Paperclip (originally Operation Overcast) (1949–1990) was the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) program in which over 1,500 German scientists, technicians, and engineers from Nazi Germany and other foreign countries were brought to the United States for employment in the aftermath of World War II....Truman's order expressly excluded anyone found "to have been a member of the Nazi Party, and more than a nominal participant in its activities, or an active supporter of Nazi militarism". However, those restrictions would have rendered ineligible most of the leading scientists the JIOA had identified for recruitment, among them rocket scientistsWernher von Braun, Kurt H. Debus and Arthur Rudolph, and the physician Hubertus Strughold, each earlier classified as a "menace to the security of the Allied Forces....To circumvent President Truman's anti-Nazi order and the Allied Potsdam and Yalta agreements, the JIOA worked independently to create false employment and political biographies for the scientists. The JIOA also expunged from the public record the scientists' Nazi Party memberships and régime affiliations. Once "bleached" of their Nazism, the scientists were granted security clearances by the U.S. government to work in the United States.".[SUP][4][/SUP]' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

You're right, not all were scientists. But they were professionals in their fields and rather than convict them of the crimes they were involved in, they were brought to the US and where needed, fake id's and political bios were concocted. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...nment-program-to-hire-nazi-war-criminals.html

It is what it is, isn't it.

 

[Shalimar]

Debby are you coming back to The Promised Land, aka the west coast? Where are you planning on settling? I am not certain if any of us Canucks qualify as the "nice Canadians" previously mentioned. lol.

 

[AZ Jim]

Debby are you coming back to The Promised Land, aka the west coast? Where are you planning on settling? I am not certain if any of us Canucks qualify as the "nice Canadians" previously mentioned. lol.

YOU both are....

 

[BobF]

I think we have a misunderstanding going on.
.............................................................
Yesterday, 01:15 PM #68
Debby

Senior Member

Join DateAug 2014LocationEast coast of CanadaPosts2,073

Originally Posted by BobF
That is an impressive post for sure. But for the very dangerous leaders that I thought we had already separated and had trials for them, I see no problem with those folks having been related to some rather nasty German units. If they had the opportunity to come to the US and have respectable jobs, why not? Their government they worked for was now gone and a new opportunity in the US or where ever must have looked good to them.

I met several of them when I was just a young person in Jr High school back then, now called middle school. I never felt threatened by them and the town I lived in also had a large group of new Italians also living in the US. Also a bunch of grateful and friendly folks. In my working career I also met many after WWII settlers in the US. One was a German pilot, from Poland, and he was actually a humorous one to talk with. In spite of the hateful things of the war, I think the US did quite well with the ones that decided to stay in the US.

Of course, I never met those high level scientist that came over to do some heavy duty work for the US government. I think they were happy to come and live in the US rather that be taken in by Russia.



.........................................
Not an impressive post by any means, just cut and paste. And I understand your point WhatInThe, just as I've come to understand that all governments are in the business of expediency or 'whatever works'. Even my own government, my 'peace keeping' government has been involved in a couple of things that I personally feel are despicable and fall far outside the reputation that we Canadians would like to feel that we project. But it is what it is right and the only thing left for me is to look forward to the day when I truly no longer have to care about any of this....until I have to again and maybe then I'll pick a different time or a different planet! Toodle-loo folks and enjoy the afternoon!
​

.............................................

Somehow I took your comment about cut and paste as meaning my post. Sorry about that as I know see that I took it to mean my post rather than your post.

My mistake, I apologize. BobF

 

[Debby]

Well that's the plan Shalimar, but unlike your real estate market, ours is in the toilet or as my grandson once said, 'it's a doom mummy, it's a doom'! We've had our lovely property listed since May 1st, had six showings early on and nothing since. So who knows when we'll get to move. We would be moving to Langley I think, because my mom who is 80, lives in Surrey and then I'll be able to drive her to appointments and such when she finally looses her license. So truthfully, I'd have to say, 'yes, someday we'll move back to the Promised Land'.

And thanks Jim for the badge of approval. Shalimar and I are very grateful for the 'props'.

 

[Shalimar]

PRops! Yesssss!

 

[Shalimar]

Sounds cool Debby, just a hop skip and a jump by ferry from where I live between Nanaimo and Victoria.

 

[Debby]

Both my daughters lived for a while on the Island. The youngest was in Victoria and the other lived near Qualicum. Beautiful places there, that's for sure. When we finally do get to make the move, one thing I want to do is is Butchart Gardens. I think I was there once when I was a kid (school field trip) but at that age it was only a highlight because it meant a day out of school! At this point, I just have to content myself with pictures of 'home' on my Pinterest board and I used to watch that tv show Supernatural because I got to see lots of places that I recognized.

Even that old Ashton Kutcher movies 'The Butterfly Effect' had a couple scenes in a little roadside cafe that was about five miles from where I lived. Ah home, I miss you so much! I'm a BC girl who got confused and lost for a few years I think but as Arnie once said, "I'll be back".

 

[oakapple]

Let's review here. I've been described as "inhuman", incapable of compassion, and so mentally atrophied as to be incapable of judgement. So much for debate.

Shalimar, I return the disappointment. Don't tell me I have no compassion. Nowhere in my posts, will you find me jumping for joy because we dropped the bomb on "those dirty Japs, and they got just what they deserved." I have said over and over again, that it was a terrible thing, and a real tragedy that so many innocents had to die. My complaint is having Americans portrayed as "inhuman" by people who raised the term to a whole new level. I keep bringing up Nanking, and the topic gets swept under the rug, because it doesn't fit the popularized image of the Japanese as victims. It was a far more horrific experience than the bomb by many magnitudes. There were thousands more killed in whatever manner could be conceived to cause the most suffering. Far from being unavoidable casualties from a bomb blast, it was deliberate premeditated murder. If you haven't already, do a little reading on the subject, or better yet, go past the warnings about graphic images, and view a few pictures. When you stop throwing up, come back and tell me that the bomb was more inhuman. Why isn't there a memorial service in Nanking every year? Could it be that its O.K to kill Chinese? I repeat; Nanking is acknowledged to be the single worst atrocity of WWII. It was just one of a continuous stream committed by the Japanese during WWII...and the perpetrators get to call us inhuman? I repeat; I love today's Japanese. Better citizens of the world than we are by far, but they are not the Japanese of WWII.

An excellent post, and awful as the nuclear bombs were, I have to agree with this post by Underock.

 

[oakapple]

Sorry to post that when the thread seems to have moved on, but it was in reply to OP.