Do you believe in heaven?

IKE said:
Everyone, except those that apparently derive a perverse pleasure from pointing out the minute mistakes of others, makes a spelling or grammar mistake once in awhile UT, no one here cares and you're among friends.........just take it with a grain of salt and don't let it get under your skin.
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Never figured it any other way. Thanks for the assist.
 

helenbacque said:
I lean toward Hinduism in that I believe that while the body might change, the soul lives on. I also strongly believe in karma, another Hinduism concept.
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Please forgive if I did not respond to your message. This is a brand new experience for me. I am loving every minute. But, sometimes things come in so fast that I seem to miss some. I heard the Rig Veda is the oldest spiritual text. Many think that Jesus may have gleaned many of his ideas from it. Here is one of the things that amazes me about early man. Man likely became sentient somewhere between 10,000 to perhaps 100,000 years ago. Assuming that humans were not able to respond with more than an oral tradition back then, where did they come by the description of the beginning of the universe. "Let there be light". That statement describes the moment of the "big bang" just about perfectly. How could those people have known about the creation of the universe? Who passed the information to them?
 
Camper6 said:
As you could have with my post? :christmas1:

Why do I have to sit through a six minute video that has nothing to do with the topic?

I don't. It's a seniors forum and you should comment on the topic in writing.
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Very well then. Let's be serious ...

------------------------------------------------

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of meta things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of Heavens with their King--
And why Descarte's Fifth Meditation --
Doesn't mean a thing."

"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
We like a priori arguments,
Put that under your hat!"
"No worries!" said the Carpenter.
"Design Argument covers that!".

"Simulation Hypothesis," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
St. Aquinas hit it on the head
First Cause Argument, indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
Rare Earth Hypothesis."

"But not for us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"Teleological Arguments are SUCH
Dismal things to view!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Will Fermi's Paradox do?

"Cosmological Argument From Contingency!
Is really, really nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Why don't we just roll dice?:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to tell you twice!"

"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To believe the Zoo Hypothesis,
After we've brought you out this far,
And increased all of your cognizance!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Seek you the Filter Hypothesis!"

"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
What was up in the skies,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we move to another thread?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd forgot what was fun.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

... don't mess with a Doctor of Metaphysics ... :eek:
 
SifuPhil said:
Very well then. Let's be serious ...

------------------------------------------------

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of meta things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of Heavens with their King--
And why Descarte's Fifth Meditation --
Doesn't mean a thing."

"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
We like a priori arguments,
Put that under your hat!"
"No worries!" said the Carpenter.
"Design Argument covers that!".

"Simulation Hypothesis," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
St. Aquinas hit it on the head
First Cause Argument, indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
Rare Earth Hypothesis."

"But not for us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"Teleological Arguments are SUCH
Dismal things to view!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Will Fermi's Paradox do?

"Cosmological Argument From Contingency!
Is really, really nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Why don't we just roll dice?:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to tell you twice!"

"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To believe the Zoo Hypothesis,
After we've brought you out this far,
And increased all of your cognizance!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Seek you the Filter Hypothesis!"

"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
What was up in the skies,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we move to another thread?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd forgot what was fun.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

... don't mess with a Doctor of Metaphysics ... :eek:
Click to expand...
I love this poem and have not seen it before. But, it reminds me of Poe's "Jabberwocky". I am assuming, at the moment, that you wrote it. Excellent job. In any case, it reminds me of Jabberwocky because it seems, ultimately, meaningless. As humans construct their collective and individual realities we produce our own sense of truth out of the universe regardless of "ultimate" truth. Whatever that means?
 
Uncontrolable said:
I love this poem and have not seen it before. But, it reminds me of Poe's "Jabberwocky". I am assuming, at the moment, that you wrote it. Excellent job. In any case, it reminds me of Jabberwocky because it seems, ultimately, meaningless. As humans construct their collective and individual realities we produce our own sense of truth out of the universe regardless of "ultimate" truth. Whatever that means?
Click to expand...

It IS based on Lewis Carroll'sworks - "The Walrus and The Carpenter". I just did a parody of the latter half or so of it.

Yes, it seems meaningless, but within that meaninglessness lies a ton of meaning. The same with my parody: if anyone had the time or desire to look up the references I made to the various philosophical / cosmological principles, they would find that it all indeed had meaning.

I totally agree with you about creating our own realities. :)
 
SifuPhil said:
It IS based on Lewis Carroll'sworks - "The Walrus and The Carpenter". I just did a parody of the latter half or so of it.

Yes, it seems meaningless, but within that meaninglessness lies a ton of meaning. The same with my parody: if anyone had the time or desire to look up the references I made to the various philosophical / cosmological principles, they would find that it all indeed had meaning.

I totally agree with you about creating our own realities. :)
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You have my attention. I will take some time and look a little harder. Sorry, did not mean to just dismiss your work. I think its a marvelous poem.
 
Shalimar said:
Yes, tnthomas is definitely one of our star posters. I particularly enjoy his cogent arguments. Takes me back to my university debating days, where we learned that any lapse of courtesy often telegraphed a poor argument.
Click to expand...
I love argumentation, but prefer the term discussion. Pisses fewer people off.
 
SifuPhil said:
Very well then. Let's be serious ...

------------------------------------------------

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of meta things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of Heavens with their King--
And why Descarte's Fifth Meditation --
Doesn't mean a thing."

"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
We like a priori arguments,
Put that under your hat!"
"No worries!" said the Carpenter.
"Design Argument covers that!".

"Simulation Hypothesis," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
St. Aquinas hit it on the head
First Cause Argument, indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
Rare Earth Hypothesis."

"But not for us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"Teleological Arguments are SUCH
Dismal things to view!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Will Fermi's Paradox do?

"Cosmological Argument From Contingency!
Is really, really nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Why don't we just roll dice?:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to tell you twice!"

"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To believe the Zoo Hypothesis,
After we've brought you out this far,
And increased all of your cognizance!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Seek you the Filter Hypothesis!"

"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
What was up in the skies,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we move to another thread?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd forgot what was fun.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

... don't mess with a Doctor of Metaphysics ... :eek:
Click to expand...
I could not stop thinking about your poem. Your poem does have meaning and I said it didn't. I apologize. I also made the mistake of saying that Poe wrote "jaberwocky". That was Lewis Carroll. In any case, I believe you were making an argument for the nonexistence of God. Then by extension that Heaven cannot exist. I have found only one possitve proof of the existence of God. I say positive because the evidence is available. Language is pre-theoretical. One plus one became 1 + 1 and a new form of symbolic logic was born. Some consider math like it is a part of nature waiting to be discovered. Math has given us the atom, which was only a probability. We call it an atom, but we really have no idea what it is. We hear atom and think atom bomb. So using our language we discover things that are only implied, have a reality. Humans have been theorizing about God since before we became sentient. The point is that our theorizing finds things "out there". Clearly this is not direct evidence for God's existence, but is a "positive" proof that God can be discovered. According to math, in an infinite set of universes, anything that can happen will happen. Therefore, something like God may actually exist in one universe. If God exists in one universe he/she may exist in all.
 
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