Traveler
Senior Member
- Location
- San Diego County
I'm not clear about what bothers you. Is it "the beginning" ? If so, the beginning of what ? The Earth ? Life on Earth?
This is a great thread. I hope it continues for a while.
Evolution vs creationism ?
- Thread starter IKE
- Start date
I'm not clear about what bothers you. Is it "the beginning" ? If so, the beginning of what ? The Earth ? Life on Earth?
This is a great thread. I hope it continues for a while.
these posts are interesting. I waited for awhile before deciding to answer.
The video posted by FlowerLady was very good. Thanks for that. His argument about “assumptions” is very well to the point of the issue.
In my view, the scientist’s viewpoint is a modern version of what God said to Job in the 38[SUP]th[/SUP] chapter – one of my favorites. You know the story of Job I hope. Long story short, he wanted an audience with God, who he felt had unfairly pitted him against Satan, even though he had not deserved it (and I think he had a valid point).
Anyway, God finally allows it to happen: that is, Job has his wish and God talks to him (one of the rare times in scripture when God talks personally to a human). In so many words, God asks Job: “Where were you when I……?” And God points out that He created the measurements of the earth, the sea, along with its boundaries, the clouds, the darkness, the morning dew, the moisture to water the plants, the lightening bolts, the strength in the legs of a horse, ….etc, etc.
His “where were you” statements were, in essence, the same as the questions raised in the video and could be changed to “Are you able to ……”. Job’s answer, upon realizing God’s greatness and power, was to say: “I lay my hand over my mouth…” and say no more. He had no answer for God, and neither do scientists today!
It’s the same now. No scientist can explain the Big Bang theory, because they have no answer for the first micro-second, called a “singularity” or billionth of a billionth, of …. etc, called a picosecond, I think.
Therefore, as always, I believe the biblical account in Genesis 1: In the beginning was God, and His spirit hovered over the face of the unformed “mass” and by His power He created the universe, and then man. By man, I mean a created being with intelligence, emotion, rationality, social tendencies, (ability to love, or hate) – that is, in God’s image (not an animal’s).
So I am a creationist.
The video posted by FlowerLady was very good. Thanks for that. His argument about “assumptions” is very well to the point of the issue.
In my view, the scientist’s viewpoint is a modern version of what God said to Job in the 38[SUP]th[/SUP] chapter – one of my favorites. You know the story of Job I hope. Long story short, he wanted an audience with God, who he felt had unfairly pitted him against Satan, even though he had not deserved it (and I think he had a valid point).
Anyway, God finally allows it to happen: that is, Job has his wish and God talks to him (one of the rare times in scripture when God talks personally to a human). In so many words, God asks Job: “Where were you when I……?” And God points out that He created the measurements of the earth, the sea, along with its boundaries, the clouds, the darkness, the morning dew, the moisture to water the plants, the lightening bolts, the strength in the legs of a horse, ….etc, etc.
His “where were you” statements were, in essence, the same as the questions raised in the video and could be changed to “Are you able to ……”. Job’s answer, upon realizing God’s greatness and power, was to say: “I lay my hand over my mouth…” and say no more. He had no answer for God, and neither do scientists today!
It’s the same now. No scientist can explain the Big Bang theory, because they have no answer for the first micro-second, called a “singularity” or billionth of a billionth, of …. etc, called a picosecond, I think.
Therefore, as always, I believe the biblical account in Genesis 1: In the beginning was God, and His spirit hovered over the face of the unformed “mass” and by His power He created the universe, and then man. By man, I mean a created being with intelligence, emotion, rationality, social tendencies, (ability to love, or hate) – that is, in God’s image (not an animal’s).
So I am a creationist.
rgp
Well-known Member
- Location
- Milford,OH
Capt Lightning said......
"Well maybe this god creature got the sums wrong - got a decimal point in the wrong place or something. Maybe this creator, just doesn't give a damn how it turns out - or maybe - this 'God' people talk about is no more than a myth. I'll go for the last one."
I often wonder, when we see,on the news, a survivor of a tragedy [tornado , hurricane etc.] it seems they always say 'thank god we survived'... or something similar. Do they also thank god for the folks that died ? I mean if he is responsible for one....is he not for the other ?
"Well maybe this god creature got the sums wrong - got a decimal point in the wrong place or something. Maybe this creator, just doesn't give a damn how it turns out - or maybe - this 'God' people talk about is no more than a myth. I'll go for the last one."
I often wonder, when we see,on the news, a survivor of a tragedy [tornado , hurricane etc.] it seems they always say 'thank god we survived'... or something similar. Do they also thank god for the folks that died ? I mean if he is responsible for one....is he not for the other ?
fishmounter
New Member
I too wonder about terrible tragedies. How we are asked to pray for victims, so that God will heal them. Why don't they pray to their god and ask him to not let people suffer in the first place! If there is a god and he/she is almighty and all knowing, why do these awful things happen to innocent people, especially to our children!? Makes me angry when I hear people say that "God works in mysterious ways". or "God has a plan".. And yes, I am a big believer in evolution! Where in the world do some people think man has only been around for a couple thousand years? And I've heard some say that Dinosaurs are only a few thousand years old! What!? Oh well, people are going to believe what they want, and I'm ok with that.
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
It's clear what bothers me. Never being able to get the answer to any of what you mention. What if there is no beginning. What if there is no end.
Humans are used to beginnings and ends. But it's not necessarily so in the universe.
Traveler
Senior Member
- Location
- San Diego County
Not to worry. The earth went about its business long before you or I were born and it will continue long after we have turned to dust. As far as I'm concerned, I don't even worry about what will happen after humans have passed into extinction. The earth will perhaps suffer for a time ( due to radiation or whatever ) and then it will continue on doing its earthy business. Creatures will continue to evolve, compete for scarce food resources, fight, reproduce and then die. Others will take their place and so it goes, on and on, until the Sun finally burns out, billions of years from now.
Smiling Jane
Senior Member
- Location
- Albuquerque NM
If there is an omnipotent being, I wish it would get more involved in the planning stages of tragedies instead of the praying for survivors stage. That's a terribly poor use of resources.
rkunsaw
Well-known Member
- Location
- Clarksville, Arkansas,USA
Several people, especially Capt Lightning have expressed my thoughts on this subject so I'll just mention something I said to my wife recently.
We have always grown most of the food we eat. We till the ground, shovel in manure and compost, plant the seeds and crawl through the rows on our knees, pulling weeds and smashing bugs. We pick the crops as they mature, shelling peas, snapping green beans, etc. We spend days in the kitchen canning the crops as they mature. We freeze many of the vegetables too. Gardening is a lot of work, hard work and it gets harder when you get older.
I used to hunt a lot and we had game to eat but no longer. I know buy meat at the grocery with money from my pension and social security which I earned through nearly 50 years in the workplace.
When relatives come to visit my wife and I cook some wonderful meals from using the above mentioned food.
When they sit at the table, before the even take the first bite, the thank god for the food. What did god have to do with it?
The only conclusion I can come up with.....I must be god.
We have always grown most of the food we eat. We till the ground, shovel in manure and compost, plant the seeds and crawl through the rows on our knees, pulling weeds and smashing bugs. We pick the crops as they mature, shelling peas, snapping green beans, etc. We spend days in the kitchen canning the crops as they mature. We freeze many of the vegetables too. Gardening is a lot of work, hard work and it gets harder when you get older.
I used to hunt a lot and we had game to eat but no longer. I know buy meat at the grocery with money from my pension and social security which I earned through nearly 50 years in the workplace.
When relatives come to visit my wife and I cook some wonderful meals from using the above mentioned food.
When they sit at the table, before the even take the first bite, the thank god for the food. What did god have to do with it?
The only conclusion I can come up with.....I must be god.
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
Well no. Where did the sun come from to provide the plants with light and energy? We are just lucky that the Earth is just the right distance from the sun. My theory is that Earth is just a fluke in the universe. Spending all that time and money looking for another Earth capable of sustaining life is just a waste of time.
Happyflowerlady
Vagabond Flowerchild
- Location
- Northern Alabama
Some of the early carvings on temples and even on pottery are of creatures that look like the composite pictures we are shown of what a dinosaur is supposed to have looked like “millions of years ago”.
Since no one had even heard of such a creature until well into the 1800’s, when the first bones were found, how did earlier civilizations draw or carve them so perfectly ? There is a famous temple in Cambodia with carvings of dinosaurs on the doorways.
They were depicting creatures that they not only were familiar with, but that they hunted for food, since some of the pictures show humans killing the dinosaur.
Camper, we're not exactly "lucky" that the earth is just the right distance from the sun. If it were not, we wouldn't be here at all. Simple as that.
According to what I've read, there's a huge probability that there is other intelligent life in the universe. Some of those trillions and trillions of stars must have conditions and planets conducive to life, even though that life might be very different from what we are accustomed to. But I agree with you that it's probably a waste of time looking for them, at least with our existing technology.
Exwisehe, that question that God asks Job, "Where were you when..." is a very profound and brilliant answer to all our doubts. It points out that we mere humans actually know nothing at all about the ultimate scheme of things. It is beyond our understanding. But it has nothing to do with creationism vs evolution.
Smiling Jane, amen to your comment that it would be better if God got more involved with the planning stages of tragedies, instead of dealing with the survivors. I've never understood why God gets all the credit when someone miraculously avoids, or is saved from, disaster, while He gets none of the blame for all the suffering and death of that same disaster. Do they really think the controlling force of the universe is personally picking out certain individuals to be rescued? Not to mention that He cares which football team wins? Or whether the kid passes the test? Or how the medical results will turn out? Clearly, we are all praying to "fate," because we humans feel pretty helpless about things most of the time, and we really, really, really want things to go a certain way for us.
According to what I've read, there's a huge probability that there is other intelligent life in the universe. Some of those trillions and trillions of stars must have conditions and planets conducive to life, even though that life might be very different from what we are accustomed to. But I agree with you that it's probably a waste of time looking for them, at least with our existing technology.
Exwisehe, that question that God asks Job, "Where were you when..." is a very profound and brilliant answer to all our doubts. It points out that we mere humans actually know nothing at all about the ultimate scheme of things. It is beyond our understanding. But it has nothing to do with creationism vs evolution.
Smiling Jane, amen to your comment that it would be better if God got more involved with the planning stages of tragedies, instead of dealing with the survivors. I've never understood why God gets all the credit when someone miraculously avoids, or is saved from, disaster, while He gets none of the blame for all the suffering and death of that same disaster. Do they really think the controlling force of the universe is personally picking out certain individuals to be rescued? Not to mention that He cares which football team wins? Or whether the kid passes the test? Or how the medical results will turn out? Clearly, we are all praying to "fate," because we humans feel pretty helpless about things most of the time, and we really, really, really want things to go a certain way for us.
[FONT="] [/FONT] [h=1]“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”[/h]
― Omar Khayyám
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”[/h]
― Omar Khayyám
So true
Medical science has shown we use very little of our mind's capacity
However
Our imaginations seem quite vivid
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
But that is 'luck'. The other planets in our solar system didn't make it.
I know all about the trillions and trillions of stars. Stars are suns. Not all stars have planets circling them. The star has to have a planet in the exact orbit just like the Earth. And most important of all. Liquid water.
Not easily come by in the universe. Lots of ice but not much in the way of oceans as on Earth.
Too far away anyway to come to any conclusive evidence.
All of the probabilities given by astronomers and mathematicians point to the fact that there have to be other planets capable of supporting life. Even if the number is one in a million, that would have to be a pretty large number when you get up into the trillions. But we mere humans will probably never know the answer.
I believe we are evolving right now, in a way that is very obvious. Look at any group of young people anywhere; what are they doing? Right, they are looking at their phones! Their minds are linked together electronically in a way that has never been seen before on this planet. There is already talk about implanting chips into people to receive and send electronic messages. Fast forward a few hundred years. Ordinary "people" will be a dying breed, on the way out, replaced by semi-human androids who are partly flesh and blood, partly electronic connections. That will be the next evolution. We will eventually be as extinct as the neanderthals, or at least will be an inferior, old-hat species.
I believe we are evolving right now, in a way that is very obvious. Look at any group of young people anywhere; what are they doing? Right, they are looking at their phones! Their minds are linked together electronically in a way that has never been seen before on this planet. There is already talk about implanting chips into people to receive and send electronic messages. Fast forward a few hundred years. Ordinary "people" will be a dying breed, on the way out, replaced by semi-human androids who are partly flesh and blood, partly electronic connections. That will be the next evolution. We will eventually be as extinct as the neanderthals, or at least will be an inferior, old-hat species.
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
Look at the preponderance of the evidence so far.
Nothing compares to Earth and I don't care how many trillions.
Look at the way Nature operates. Nothing is two alike. Not even humans. Not even snowflakes. Not even seeds. Not even leaves on a tree.
Everyone has this fanciful wish about something like E.T.
Do you know how far the nearest star is and how long it would take to get there?
The limiting speed in the universe and it has never been disproved, is the speed of light.
This kinda summarizes the question - is Earth where it is by luck or by design? Or maybe there are other explanations, such as it is here by luck but mankind was placed here to take advantage of the lucky orbital placement.
rgp
Well-known Member
- Location
- Milford,OH
Doubt we'll ever know....Does it really matter ?
Granted, I'm curious as well but.....I'd rather our brain-trust work more on the tangible problems at hand. Like the lives & the world of us now living, and what we leave behind for those not yet born.
If we truly are the result of some entity , or another race from out in space....then they are going to do with us as they choose anyway, so ??
It's just like the eat right exercise argument....there is no absolute answer....it's all a matter of genetics. If there were an absolute....most folks would do it, and that would end the controversy.
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
Not as far as I am concerned. The conditions were just right. As far as I am concerned everything on Earth is a random occurrence.
You can't plan in advance and expect it's actually going to happen because if that was true I could make a fortune in the stock market.
You are born. It's luck that you are male or female although the default is to the female.
You meet someone. Random occurence. You get married and have children. You have no idea what the children are going to resemble or what they will be like.
If you try to stick to thoroughbreds you will run into inbreeding with all it's problems like the Royal Family of Russia.
Race horses have bleeding gums.
Just observe Nature and how it works and you can't go too far wrong.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion of it's all just luck , but I see way too much evidence to the contrary. What you ascribe to luck I believe is all part of God's design, though I will certainly admit I do not comprehend how all of that design functions. I'm not sure what thoroughbreds and bleeding gums have to do with this discussion, though.
God Bless and have a nice day
Hoot
God Bless and have a nice day
Hoot
Big Horn
Member
- Location
- Cody, Wyoming
Some members of European royalty have had vestigial tails. That is rather nifty. I wonder if any learned how to wag them.
Almost all of my income for the past fifty years has come from investments. Some of us can plan in advance.
Wintermint
Member
I'm a rationalist and it is notable that things that were the deepest of mysteries to human beings for literally thousands of years , from where the sun goes to at night, what the wind is made of, what are those sparkly lights in the sky - have all and more, much more, been explained by human beings using rational means and evidence. Pretty much any question that was answered with a religious response has been superseded with a rational explanation. Some of those old assumptions, many with religion at their core, such as the earth being at the centre of the universe seem almost laughable now.
Ans yet mysteries still abound. There are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on earth and to think we are unique in some way is the height of vanity. And yet we are special. We are part of the universe, each of us made from stuff born in the middle of stars that has come together and is capable of looking out at itself and asking questions about it all. We may be very rare in the universe. I suspect we are personally. And because of that we should not squander the mental powers we have evolved and developed on superstition and fearful responses to mystery, but wonder and ask even more questions.
Ans yet mysteries still abound. There are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on earth and to think we are unique in some way is the height of vanity. And yet we are special. We are part of the universe, each of us made from stuff born in the middle of stars that has come together and is capable of looking out at itself and asking questions about it all. We may be very rare in the universe. I suspect we are personally. And because of that we should not squander the mental powers we have evolved and developed on superstition and fearful responses to mystery, but wonder and ask even more questions.
Knight
Well-known Member
Genesis 5:1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.
Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man
http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-27.htm
Google search between likeness & image has a lot on varying opinions by those dedicated to bible study. This intrigued me.
Then God said, Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth (Genesis 1:26).
http://web.ccbce.com/multimedia/BLB/faq/nbi/690.html
Who & what are the "us"?
Then there is.
Likeness has been interpreted to mean moral.
Genesis 9:6 pretty much sets the tone for war or any other reason for taking a life. That IMO is not a great moral attribute. What were the "us" thinking?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and rule out Image. When I think of an image I think about a picture, a statue, a painting. The bible doesn't mention what we know to be real in terms of ugly not to bright humans.
These
Neanderthals (UK: /niˈændərˌtɑːl/, also US: /neɪ-, -ˈɑːn-, -ˌtɔːl, -ˌθɔːl/),[3][4] more rarely known as Neandertals,[a] were archaic humans that became extinct about 40,000 years ago.[8][9][10][11][12][13] They seem to have appeared in Europe and later expanded into Southwest, Central and Northern Asia. There, they left hundreds of stone tool assemblages. Almost all of those younger than 160,000 years are of the so-called Mousterian techno-complex, which is characterised by tools made out of stone flakes.[14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.
Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man
http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-27.htm
Google search between likeness & image has a lot on varying opinions by those dedicated to bible study. This intrigued me.
Then God said, Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth (Genesis 1:26).
http://web.ccbce.com/multimedia/BLB/faq/nbi/690.html
Who & what are the "us"?
Then there is.
Likeness has been interpreted to mean moral.
Genesis 9:6 pretty much sets the tone for war or any other reason for taking a life. That IMO is not a great moral attribute. What were the "us" thinking?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and rule out Image. When I think of an image I think about a picture, a statue, a painting. The bible doesn't mention what we know to be real in terms of ugly not to bright humans.
These
Neanderthals (UK: /niˈændərˌtɑːl/, also US: /neɪ-, -ˈɑːn-, -ˌtɔːl, -ˌθɔːl/),[3][4] more rarely known as Neandertals,[a] were archaic humans that became extinct about 40,000 years ago.[8][9][10][11][12][13] They seem to have appeared in Europe and later expanded into Southwest, Central and Northern Asia. There, they left hundreds of stone tool assemblages. Almost all of those younger than 160,000 years are of the so-called Mousterian techno-complex, which is characterised by tools made out of stone flakes.[14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
I remember years ago, when I was fascinated by chemistry, learning that although our planet is water based it is possible to have a parallel chemical environment based on the ammonia molecule. Perhaps on some other planet where the NH3 molecule can exist in liquid, solid and gaseous forms, there is life that takes advantage of this alternate chemistry. Obviously, it would not be anything like that which exists on earth, nor could it survive here, just as we could not survive there.
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
Thoroughbreds and bleeding gums and the Royal Family of Russia. Inbreeding causing hemophilia.
Natures design.
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
We really don't care about mushrooms existing on other worlds do we?
What is this fascination with other worlds? There are all kinds of places on the Earth that are uninhabited.