Is The Medical System Broken?

V

Vida May

Member
For years I have expressed concern about overpopulation and people have argued that is not a problem, just as people have argued global warming is not a problem. Okay, I feel in need of a reality check.

From where I sit on this planet, we no longer have small problems that we can fix but major problems that we can not fix and we will have to endure. Like homelessness has blown up as a huge problem everywhere, problems with medical care have gone from an unconvince to "Oh my God I could die before I can see a doctor".

I didn't mind so much when it took over 6 months to get a dental appointment, but waiting 7 months to see a urologist worries me. Waiting several months before a dermatologist checks a facial spot that could be cancer, is stressful. Calling for an appointment and being told the office is overwhelmed with patients and is not taking new ones, is devastating.

I don't know about where you live but in my area it is common to wait 8 hours or longer in our local emergency room before seeing a doctor. People who could have life-threatening problems are refusing to go to the emergency room because the long wait is so unpleasant.

How do things look from your point of view?
 

I think you have it upside down. It isn't overpopulation but demographic collapse, the very opposite thing, which has put us into trouble.

So few children are being born and have been for decades now that the population is aging. We have large numbers in and entering retirement and a shrinking population to have new children, work, pay taxes, pay into retirement systems and health care, and on and on.

This is a serious problem because once the trend began and ran for a decade there is no going back. Less kids have even less kids and then even less than that.

About all we can do now is slow the trend. I don't see it starting to bounce back until a deep collapse though.


Information about this has been readily available for three decades now. However it doesn't fit the narrative of the selfish, gets rejected out of hand, and weird conscience-salving fictions about a "population explosion" that never was are gobbled with a spoon.

Demographers were aghast when the butterfly fancier Paul Ehrlich trotted out his faux-fact moneymaker "The Population Bomb" in 1968. They'd already plotted the end out by looking at actual data. They saw pretty closely what could happen and they knew all too well its cause.


In any case we're here now. But the problem is not overpopulation. Instead the opposite has occurred. Why do you think the West has imported so many doctors?

We've caused a scarcity and we're going to feel it elsewhere too.
 
Here's a left-leaning look at the issue:


When NBC admits to it you know it's already too late: no economic incentive system has worked anywhere it has been tried.

Far more drastic measures will be required unless we're ready for the lights to just go out.
 

dilettante said:
I think you have it upside down. It isn't overpopulation but demographic collapse, the very opposite thing, which has put us into trouble.
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Exactly!

And couple that with the mass exodus of healthcare workers who burned out during the COVID crisis... there are huge shortages across the board. Doctors, nurses, dietary, housekeeping... all departments needing people to work.

I am fortunate that I can get appointments in a reasonable amount of time. Recently, dental in three weeks; derm in two weeks - established patient at both. I don't know how long that will continue, though, as many working at those offices are closing in on retirement.
 
Yeah, I don't see the problem easing. We've been digging this hole for decades, it won't get filled in over night.

Maybe once we are gone things will have rebalanced again.
 
dilettante said:
I think you have it upside down. It isn't overpopulation but demographic collapse, the very opposite thing, which has put us into trouble.

So few children are being born and have been for decades now that the population is aging. We have large numbers in and entering retirement and a shrinking population to have new children, work, pay taxes, pay into retirement systems and health care, and on and on.

This is a serious problem because once the trend began and ran for a decade there is no going back. Less kids have even less kids and then even less than that.

About all we can do now is slow the trend. I don't see it starting to bounce back until a deep collapse though.


Information about this has been readily available for three decades now. However it doesn't fit the narrative of the selfish, gets rejected out of hand, and weird conscience-salving fictions about a "population explosion" that never was are gobbled with a spoon.

Demographers were aghast when the butterfly fancier Paul Ehrlich trotted out his faux-fact moneymaker "The Population Bomb" in 1968. They'd already plotted the end out by looking at actual data. They saw pretty closely what could happen and they knew all too well its cause.


In any case we're here now. But the problem is not overpopulation. Instead the opposite has occurred. Why do you think the West has imported so many doctors?

We've caused a scarcity and we're going to feel it elsewhere too.
Click to expand...

You have made this debate interesting. I love it when I am motivated to look for more information.
Demographics — specifically, population growth and aging — continue to be the primary drivers for increasing the need for more doctors to meet the health care needs of tomorrow.
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New AAMC Report Shows Continuing Projected Physician Shortage.
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That says, that population growth is a problem and a solution is increasing the number of people educated to be doctors and reducing the cost of that education, will reduce the problem. Another link also talks about the cost of education and the barriers that keep the number of doctors low. With a mention of future demographics. However, we are no longer a high-labor industrial economy. Machines and technology greatly reduce the number of people we need, and that leaves plenty of people to do what needs to be done. While a growing older population and increased medical insurance have increased the demand for health care.

Part of the issue stems from the way America’s population is shifting. “By 2035, there will be more seniors aged 65 or older than children aged 17 or younger—the first time this demographic imbalance has occurred in the nation’s history,” Taylor says. This is significant because “older people see a physician at three or four times the rate of younger people and account for a highly disproportionate number of surgeries, diagnostic tests, and other medical procedures.”
The U.S. Physician Shortage Is Only Going to Get Worse. Here Are Potential Solutions
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Women are not suddenly giving birth to new 65 year olds.

The population is shifting because women are having fewer children, and have been for some time now.
 
Vida May said:
For years I have expressed concern about overpopulation and people have argued that is not a problem, just as people have argued global warming is not a problem. Okay, I feel in need of a reality check.

From where I sit on this planet, we no longer have small problems that we can fix but major problems that we can not fix and we will have to endure. Like homelessness has blown up as a huge problem everywhere, problems with medical care have gone from an unconvince to "Oh my God I could die before I can see a doctor".

I didn't mind so much when it took over 6 months to get a dental appointment, but waiting 7 months to see a urologist worries me. Waiting several months before a dermatologist checks a facial spot that could be cancer, is stressful. Calling for an appointment and being told the office is overwhelmed with patients and is not taking new ones, is devastating.

I don't know about where you live but in my area it is common to wait 8 hours or longer in our local emergency room before seeing a doctor. People who could have life-threatening problems are refusing to go to the emergency room because the long wait is so unpleasant.

How do things look from your point of view?
Click to expand...
Welcome to the NHS..where you can die on the long waiting list before you get a procedure ...and many do....
 
Vida May said:
For years I have expressed concern about overpopulation and people have argued that is not a problem, just as people have argued global warming is not a problem. Okay, I feel in need of a reality check.

From where I sit on this planet, we no longer have small problems that we can fix but major problems that we can not fix and we will have to endure. Like homelessness has blown up as a huge problem everywhere, problems with medical care have gone from an unconvince to "Oh my God I could die before I can see a doctor".

I didn't mind so much when it took over 6 months to get a dental appointment, but waiting 7 months to see a urologist worries me. Waiting several months before a dermatologist checks a facial spot that could be cancer, is stressful. Calling for an appointment and being told the office is overwhelmed with patients and is not taking new ones, is devastating.

I don't know about where you live but in my area it is common to wait 8 hours or longer in our local emergency room before seeing a doctor. People who could have life-threatening problems are refusing to go to the emergency room because the long wait is so unpleasant.

How do things look from your point of view?
Click to expand...
25 years ago, I spent six hours waiting in the ER to be seen. I caught a cold on top of the sprained ankle I went for. No, it's not worth it. We can avoid some ER visits by having better first aid in our homes. Just my opinion.
 
Sure the world is over populated but a lot of the "idiots" on this planet are more interested in some "Diddly" guy or that Taylor Swift than thinking about global warming or the war in Europe or the middle east.

If you think Diddly or Swift is the real "cat's meow " then your part of the global problem.
 
dilettante said:
I think you have it upside down. It isn't overpopulation but demographic collapse, the very opposite thing, which has put us into trouble.

So few children are being born and have been for decades now that the population is aging. We have large numbers in and entering retirement and a shrinking population to have new children, work, pay taxes, pay into retirement systems and health care, and on and on.

This is a serious problem because once the trend began and ran for a decade there is no going back. Less kids have even less kids and then even less than that.

About all we can do now is slow the trend. I don't see it starting to bounce back until a deep collapse though.


Information about this has been readily available for three decades now. However it doesn't fit the narrative of the selfish, gets rejected out of hand, and weird conscience-salving fictions about a "population explosion" that never was are gobbled with a spoon.

Demographers were aghast when the butterfly fancier Paul Ehrlich trotted out his faux-fact moneymaker "The Population Bomb" in 1968. They'd already plotted the end out by looking at actual data. They saw pretty closely what could happen and they knew all too well its cause.


In any case we're here now. But the problem is not overpopulation. Instead the opposite has occurred. Why do you think the West has imported so many doctors?

We've caused a scarcity and we're going to feel it elsewhere too.
Click to expand...
So ..... I am responsible for the demise of mankind because ....... I chose not to have children ? ,,,,,,,,,, Hummmmm
 
I have a long winded different take on this problem. This is part of it….hospitals in my area are not required to triage..then “fast track” appropriate non emergent patients from the emergency rooms. This causes huge amounts to be billed to our insurance companies for non emergent services. And causes truly sick folks to wait…sometimes for hours. Medicare is not allowed to create a formulary and negotiate drug prices…with a very very few exceptions. This allows for drug companies to charge way more in the united states than in surrounding countries for the sane drugs.
 
In the united states if you REQUiRED people to fill out advance directives on their 70th birthday you would reduce costs for care that has “no vertical payback”…ie you stopped breathing and your heart stopped and you have terminal cancer…do we REALLY need to run that code?? We need to make education to become a doctor free…AFTER that doctor has passed their respective boards.
 
dilettante said:
I think you have it upside down. It isn't overpopulation but demographic collapse, the very opposite thing, which has put us into trouble.

So few children are being born and have been for decades now that the population is aging. We have large numbers in and entering retirement and a shrinking population to have new children, work, pay taxes, pay into retirement systems and health care, and on and on.
Click to expand...
Global overpopulation is one genuine issue.

Another issue is the outcome of the Post-War-baby-boom wherein a lot of kids were born (North America presents an example) from 1946 to about 1960. I have a friend who, over two stretches of government service, was a member of the legislature (MLA) in British Columbia. What he's said is that, with Boomers becoming elders, the government's efforts to maintain the province's health-care system has reduced the amount of money that could be allocated to other responsibilities of government.

Support and services for young families & their kids (not to mention roads, disaster relief, etc) are obviously among these other responsibilities.
 
It seems we are being herded into a digital cloud of 1's and 0's. That is what you'll be, and AI will be there for you. Push a button, and get the care you need by the robot RN that is local. This happening at a slow rate now, but we can all feel how communicating with a live person is going away. All facets of our medical care will be incorporated into a large data bank, and stats will be run on every possible thing to do with your needs, including your insurance and income.

There is an alternative brewing. Become your own doctor. Thousands of people are taking control of the ailments with the help of non-doctor remedies. They have to be studied thoroughly, and tested slowly, but we will find a way to deal with most of our modern ills. Many of which could be idiopathic. Learn to treat yourself to the alternative medicines and techniques to help. There are online groups for everything you can imagine now. The Mayo clinic is a pretty good place.
 
I found that if my GP would recommend any procedure, it's faster than I personally attempt to make an appointment with any specialists.
On my very first appointment with GP, I waited one and a half month, but my second visit only one to two weeks see my GP.
In my area/big city, there is no problem seeing any Drs., either GP or any specialists, normally waiting period is about 1-2 months's period which is reasonable, in my opinion, except ER which must be quick to see, about within at least 3-hours' waiting.
All Drs.' office asking Insurance Cards before confirmation of appointment. I have Medicare and BCBS.
 
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JBR said:
What he's said is that, with Boomers becoming elders, the government's efforts to maintain the province's health-care system has reduced the amount of money that could be allocated to other responsibilities of government.
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How unfair of a generation to take a free ride, neither building nor contributing anything to the system! So just suck it up and survive or die?

Or could it be that government mismanagement and graft and political agendas have sucked the system dry of resources? Gosh, where did all of the money pumped into the system go?

JBR said:
What he's said is that, with Boomers becoming elders, the government's efforts to maintain the province's health-care system has reduced the amount of money that could be allocated to other responsibilities of government.
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What do you suggest? Mass suicide of a generation? Time machines so they can go back and abort themselves?

Have they made no economic and social contributions? Birthed and raised no children? Paid no taxes, performed no public service, and stayed at home with parents smoking dope and playing video games?

I must be missing the point.

JBR said:
Support and services for young families & their kids (not to mention roads, disaster relief, etc) are obviously among these other responsibilities.
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They didn't support their kids? Built no roads nor covered disasters or sent resources into parts of the world with less?

Does "other responsibilities" mean funding the fighting of endless wars, including the proxy wars going on today?
 
Packerjohn said:
Sure the world is over populated but a lot of the "idiots" on this planet are more interested in some "Diddly" guy or that Taylor Swift than thinking about global warming or the war in Europe or the middle east.

If you think Diddly or Swift is the real "cat's meow " then your part of the global problem.
Click to expand...
I agree with you. I love learning and I think life in heaven would be boring because we need problems to solve. But there doesn't seem to be many people who think as I do.

I don't care about Diddly or Swift. I want to know the issues and the facts and then where do Diddly and Swift stand.

Obama is the only leader I know who addressed the medical problem. Unfortunately, an aging population and increasing the number of people who get medical care created a shortage of medical people. That shortage was artificially created by intentionally limiting the number of medically educated people.

The elephant in the room is how are we going to pay for this increasing need for medical care.
I think our past of ignoring human needs and regulating medical care by treating only those who could afford it, is unconscionable. Also how much should everyone be paid? Most of my life women were unpaid caregivers and if they did work outside of the home it was for very low wages because the value was caring humans, not money.
 
I think one of the problems is the healthcare system itself. IMO, the more complicated a system is, and the more people involved seeking to make a profit, the more costly it will be, and difficult to implement. There are hundreds of different companies involved in our healthcare, and each one is primarily interested in profit.

I would be in favor of a non-profit single-payer system. no forms to fill out, no HMO's or PPO's, just keep it as simple as possible. It may not be perfect, but I think it would be a lot better than what we have now.
 

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