Israel Has Declared War after Unprecedented Hamas Attack

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These people have been fighting each other for so long , I can't remember .
Surely since 1948. It has {IMO} always been a he said / she said kind of thing.

Maybe it is wrong to say but ... I try not to take a side becauseof my ignorance of each side / each group, and the area overall.

What I do not understand is the lack of intelligence by Israel .... didn't they see this brewing / coming ?

I have heard that some blame us for the lack of intelligence involving the attack . While I know it could boil into something that indeed could indeed involve us {hope not} I really do not see where we should be / should have been the first line of intelligence / defence.

I will add ....... as far as I know , and have read for these twenty plus years is this. There were no Jews involved in the 9/11 attacks. All Arabs ! So for that alone, I tend to believe the Israeli argument.
 
Naturally said:
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Accurate!
 
Sad news yes but I'm not surprised. I was born in 1946 and the fighting has been going on now for almost 74 years.

I just wish that they would send some of these men from around here that do nothing but drive around on their expensive toys (opps, I mean motorcycles) all day long and keep roaring their motors and upsetting everyone with noise pollution. At least in the Middle East they might be doing some good because they sure aren't contribution to anything positive here. Amazing how some people can be a complete waste!
 
rgp said:
These people have been fighting each other for so long , I can't remember .
Surely since 1948. It has {IMO} always been a he said / she said kind of thing.

...

I have heard that some blame us for the lack of intelligence involving the attack . While I know it could boil into something that indeed could indeed involve us {hope not} I really do not see where we should be / should have been the first line of intelligence / defence.

...
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I agree with that last bit. This breech is on Israeli intelligence 100%.

It's way more than a he-said/she-said thing. I'm sure you probably know that. None of the Arab states wanted Jews to have their own state, and it took a few years for the UN to finally agree.

Whenever a Two-State policy has been proposed, Hamas rejected it. And Israel won't agree to a One-State policy because, for one thing, they're certain that Palestinians would eventually outnumber them. And I'm sure they're right about that. If I remember right, Christians make up something like 12% of the world's population, Muslims about the same, and Jews make up under 2%, and Israel's neighbors would love to see them at 0%.
 
rgp said:
Well I'm sorry but .... They should know the dangers of that area .

And I surely hope their ignorance doesn't drag our nation into this conflict.
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Some distant and not-so-distant relatives and their friends were over there when this started (my mom's side is Jewish), attending a concert at the festival of Sukkot. Some of them were killed. Some are missing.

They've gone to Israel for various holidays and celebrations for many years, all peaceful until Oct 2nd 2023.
 
IDF intel has been a question. Here are some thoughts concerning IDF intel on the day of the Hamas attack, from a civilian woman in Israel who is said to have once served in the IDF Intelligence Forces.

In her remarks she comments that the security teams (or forces) that were assigned to guard the ‘peace festival’ were re-deployed to another location prior to the attack, which was too distant to provide an effective response.

Among the stunning lapses of combined Israeli intel to somehow ‘miss’ this massive and well-coordinated multi-front attack, I find her questions and assertions particularly troublesome.

Hopefully the complete and unfiltered truth will come out. But ya know, what are the chances.

I served in the IDF 25 years ago in the intelligence forces..
 
Tish said:
It's so heartbreaking, now they are planning to post executions on the internet.
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This is what thugs and criminals do. As described up thread these terrorist organizations are akin to gangs and/or gangsters. I don't care what their grievance is especially after they kill, torture, kidnap non combatants(poor strategy by the way galvanizing their perceived enemy)These are criminals that need to be hunted down until they are found dead.

And double checking but they apparently they ID'd one of the terrorist who kidnapped the German girl at the festival and threw her body on the back of their pick up truck. One by one just like the Munich Olympics terrorists they have to be hunted down and arrested or taken care of on video for their commrads to see.
 
This is horrific and heartbreaking, I can't imagine how it feels being under attack like that and knowing that your loved ones have been kidnapped as hostages whose future looks grim. May the murdered rest peacefully, strength and resilience to their survivors. I hope this ends sooner than later. :(
 
WhatInThe said:
This is what thugs and criminals do. As described up thread these terrorist organizations are akin to gangs and/or gangsters. I don't care what their grievance is especially after they kill, torture, kidnap non combatants(poor strategy by the way galvanizing their perceived enemy)These are criminals that need to be hunted down until they are found dead.

And double checking but they apparently they ID'd one of the terrorist who kidnapped the German girl at the festival and threw her body on the back of their pick up truck. One by one just like the Munich Olympics terrorists they have to be hunted down and arrested or taken care of on video for their commrads to see.
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Like Jihadi's
 
The problem isn't Palestinians vs Jews. It's the sick mentality of terrorists. The Taliban, Isis, Al Qaeda, and now Hamas are all cut from the same cloth. They are Islamic fundamentalists who do not hesitate to commit murder and all kinds of other atrocities, to seize power and dictate to the people unfortunate enough to live under their rule.

Netanyahu and the Israeli right wing are no lovable bunch either, but they are not terrorists. They did not steal anyone's land. Israel was given to them by the UN after WW2, because the Jews worldwide considered it their time-honored home, and all those people displaced by the Holocaust had nowhere else to go. They legally moved into what was basically a desert, and made it a modern, democratic state, free and secular, although people could practice any form of fundamentalism they wanted (same as in this country). I am no fan of Netanyahu, but he and his right-wing supporters are not terrorists. (Although right now they seem to be matching the level of terror of their enemies.)

What I cannot understand about all this is... why? What did Hamas hope to gain by all this carnage? As far as I can tell, they are just motivated by sheer hate. And I can't see any justification either for the Israelis cutting off the electricity, water, etc. of millions of innocent people who are
trapped in Gaza. They literally have no route of escape. By now, it's just hate upon more hate. I wonder if there is really any hope for the human race.
 
My simplistic thoughts.
Hamas/Palestine hate Israel
Iran supports Hamas because they hate Israel
Iran supports Russia and works with them
Russia hates the US and wants to conquer the Ukraine and other countries
This conflict distracts the US from the Ukraine situation
It feels like a complicated spider web to me.
 
Jules said:
My simplistic thoughts.
Hamas/Palestine hate Israel
Iran supports Hamas because they hate Israel
Iran supports Russia and works with them
Russia hates the US and wants to conquer the Ukraine and other countries
This conflict distracts the US from the Ukraine situation
It feels like a complicated spider web to me.
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And Putin had a meeting with an Iranian leader very recently. I don't remember who....maybe president Raisi; I'll have to look it up. I mentioned this earlier in the thread. I won't be surprised if Putin promised soldiers for this conflict in Israel in exchange for Iranian missiles and drones and whatever for the conflict in Ukraine.
 
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Murrmurr said:
Some distant and not-so-distant relatives and their friends were over there when this started (my mom's side is Jewish), attending a concert at the festival of Sukkot. Some of them were killed. Some are missing.

They've gone to Israel for various holidays and celebrations for many years, all peaceful until Oct 2nd 2023.
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Well ... I'm very sorry for your family, and your loss .
 
As to why, anyone ever read the Koran? I read a translation, which said, among other things, that all Jews should be killed, and the rest of the world put under Muslim law (Sharia law) and they'd have to pay a tax unless they convert to Islam.

"Jizya is a per capita yearly taxation historically levied in the form of financial charge on dhimmis, that is, permanent non-Muslim subjects of a state governed by Islamic law. The Quran and hadiths mention jizya without specifying its rate or amount, and the application of jizya varied in the course of Islamic history."
Jizya - Wikipedia

The Koran translation I read:

In the Shadow of the Sword: The Birth of Islam and the Rise of the Global Arab Empire
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005IEGKMA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1​


Anyway ...
 
Well, to state the obvious .... The world is so unstable just now, it scary.

With Russia in Ukraine , now this between Israel & Hamas ... The whole thing could blow up into a world war ... I certainly hope not.

And I don't think this country [the U.S.] is up to snuff currently to take on what would be needed ...... jmo
 
Sunny said:
The problem isn't Palestinians vs Jews. It's the sick mentality of terrorists. The Taliban, Isis, Al Qaeda, and now Hamas are all cut from the same cloth. They are Islamic fundamentalists who do not hesitate to commit murder and all kinds of other atrocities, to seize power and dictate to the people unfortunate enough to live under their rule.

Netanyahu and the Israeli right wing are no lovable bunch either, but they are not terrorists. They did not steal anyone's land. Israel was given to them by the UN after WW2, because the Jews worldwide considered it their time-honored home, and all those people displaced by the Holocaust had nowhere else to go. They legally moved into what was basically a desert, and made it a modern, democratic state, free and secular, although people could practice any form of fundamentalism they wanted (same as in this country). I am no fan of Netanyahu, but he and his right-wing supporters are not terrorists. (Although right now they seem to be matching the level of terror of their enemies.)

What I cannot understand about all this is... why? What did Hamas hope to gain by all this carnage? As far as I can tell, they are just motivated by sheer hate. And I can't see any justification either for the Israelis cutting off the electricity, water, etc. of millions of innocent people who are
trapped in Gaza. They literally have no route of escape. By now, it's just hate upon more hate. I wonder if there is really any hope for the human race.
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Some people think Gaza is a trap to lure Israeli soldiers. The soldiers may have no escape either. It's one theory.
 
Devi said:
As to why, anyone ever read the Koran? I read a translation, which said, among other things, that all Jews should be killed, and the rest of the world put under Muslim law (Sharia law) and they'd have to pay a tax unless they convert to Islam.

"Jizya is a per capita yearly taxation historically levied in the form of financial charge on dhimmis, that is, permanent non-Muslim subjects of a state governed by Islamic law. The Quran and hadiths mention jizya without specifying its rate or amount, and the application of jizya varied in the course of Islamic history."
Jizya - Wikipedia

The Koran translation I read:

In the Shadow of the Sword: The Birth of Islam and the Rise of the Global Arab Empire​

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005IEGKMA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1​


Anyway ...
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I haven't read the Koran, but I have read parts that explain why some fundamentalist groups might think anything goes against the infidel and that the infidel is anyone not Muslim.

Koran "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate" (Sura 9:73). "The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan" (Sura 4:76). "Muhammad is God's Apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" (Sura 48:29).

Of course you can find many places in the Old Testament where violence seems to be encouraged, too.

Then we come to Jesus who told us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek, yet we had Catholics against Protestant in Ireland doing this very same tit for tat, revenge fighting for years.

I just don't know how anyone can reach the level of anger and hatred that would permit themselves to do what Hamas is doing.
 
It's personal. I know dozens of people in Israel; only related by blood with about a quarter of them. My neighbors are suffering greatly; my new next door neighbors are Israeli and spent the summer there with their adorable 2 year old twins. Their families are of course directly affected.

What's also personal: In my initial posts I made an attempt to explain the situation from what I personally know. This was misconstrued, causing me personal hurt. Anyway...........

I am Jewish. Israel is my home if I want it; it's the home of any Jew anywhere on earth to do the same. It's our right to claim Aliyah.

There are no buts about this: Just because I have the ability to understand and explain this knowledge should not make me suspect of not fully supporting MY PEOPLE.

eta
Grew up with the chant "Next Year in Jerusalem." A promise, a hope. A Historical Basis.
 
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We, too, have Israeli friends, some of whom moved back to Israel. I do worry.

I have not wanted to say anything here at SF about Islam, as it's not up to me to tell people what to believe. It's just ... well, what's going on in the Middle East speaks for itself. I'm sure not all Muslims are like that, but ... dang.

Also true re other religions here in the West have had issues.

I will point out that, in a country (like the U.S.) where we're a "melting pot" of people from all over, where you're raised to accept all others ... well, it ain't necessarily so that they're just like you. So I don't get blinded by the propaganda.
 
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