Mink

QuickSilver said:
Well maybe... but Texas BBQ wasn't invented yet... lol!

Actually Debby..... He DOES..

Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. (Genesis 9:3-4)

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. (Romans 14:5-6)

and he beheld the sky opened up, and a certain object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. And a voice came to him, "Arise, Peter, kill and eat!" But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." And again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." (Acts 10:11-15)

Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said to them, "Go and take for yourselves lambs according to your families, and slay the Passover lamb. And you shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and apply some of the blood that is in the basin to the lintel and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his house until morning. For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you." (Exodus 12:21-23)

Be careful Debby...

Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day - things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)
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Okay, so we're going to get all Biblical here are we? Okay, I can do that. What I'm talking about is the INTENDED diet for human beings. Plants and that's what the first man was told at the time of Creation.

What you are pointing out is that after mankind sinned and brought death into the world by that sin, then when God had seen fit to wipe almost all of creation out, he took man's wickedness into account (they're stupid and can't help themselves????) and permitted them to begin consuming the other creatures. And remember that when He first 'demonstrated' a result of that sin, He also used it as a lesson, (i.e. I have to kill this sweet, furry little bunny because of you bozo's) even while He cursed all man and woman kind (Genesis 3).

So it's not like He said,"'Hey, I got this great idea for future barbecue ingredients for you humans...", it was more of a 'the wages of sin is death' kind of moment as in 'sin = death= suffering/blood/gore'.

The next one Romans, is also after we 'proved how stupid we are' and the chapter actually is about how God accepts all of us so who are we to judge anyones relationship with God. Also about how we all stand alone before God. Or I could take a following verse out of context and show this: '21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.' Context is always critical to any dissemination of information.

The Acts verse is actually talking about how the Gentiles are now permitted to come to the Father and the Son. Since food was such a pivotal issue to the Jews, he used a symbol that would get their attention and stick in their minds even when their entire upbringing had taught for generations that Gentiles were to be avoided. An event worthy of 'myth and legend' as in a blanket lowered down from heaven with unclean things to EAT!!!

If you read the entire chapter 10 of Acts, you will see how it starts with a Gentile 'believer' named Cornelius having a need, moves over to Peter being told that God has made some things clean and not to refuse them, and then the Gentile believer shows up at his door and for the first time ever, Peter opens his door to a Gentile.

Exodus passage is again, after sin entered the world and we'd proved we were unreliable at best.

Why should I be careful QS? I'm not a Christian believer anymore. Besides I think what that verse is actually talking about is how each of those 'issues' only points towards the coming Christ and how now the believer is joined to Christ and not to let anyone who is judging them based on any of various possible issues, draw them away from the Saviour out of embarrassment or distraction or whatever. To remain strong and connected to Him and to the church. He's also pointing out that it's not rules that save you, so trying to be saved through adherence to a bunch of man made rules isn't going to do it. (see all of Colossians 2)

So actually the big difference in that last verse (Col.2) and the first verses in Genesis is that yours is talking about 'man-made rules' whereas Genesis is laying out what God intends for his creation. Personally, if I was a Christian, I'd be inclined to look at how 'my God' intended for me to live and then go from there.
 
QuickSilver said:
Some meat is healthier than others... Lamb is very lean... and believe it or not goat is leaner... and delish...
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Lamb is only lean if you cut the fat off. However, if you do that the meat is a lot leaner than marbled beef.
Aussie free range, grass fed meat, lamb and beef, is leaner than American style corn fed and food lot beasts. You do need to use your teeth when chewing the meat though.

As a side note, beef, lamb and pork, once the fat is discarded, contains less DDT and other pesticide residues than chicken and fish.
 
Debby, look at human teeth. We are neither herbivores nor carnivores. We have the dentition of omnivores.
We're meant to be hunter/gatherers, taking advantage of whatever is available to us in the environment..
I'm just thankful not to have to be a scavenger or carrion eater.
 
Warrigal, that sounds right to me!

Also, our eyes look forward as all hunters eyes do. Eyes of the prey are on either side of their heads, to help them see the hunters sneaking up on them.

There might be exceptions.
 
Eyes forward in our case is because we evolved from tree climbers. You need binocular vision if you don't want to misjudge distance and fall to your death. However it also makes it easier to catch live food.

We don't have the highly developed olfactory sense of a pure carnivore nor the acute hearing of a herbivore. We're a blend of the two and it is a very successful blend too.
 
Awhile back I got into Indian and Middle Eastern cooking... They use a lot of goat meat... at first like most Westerners, I wasn't too keen on trying it.. for some reason, but I did and it is really good.. AND goat is VERY lean..
 
Debby said:
Okay, so we're going to get all Biblical here are we? Okay, I can do that. What I'm talking about is the INTENDED diet for human beings. Plants and that's what the first man was told at the time of Creation.

What you are pointing out is that after mankind sinned and brought death into the world by that sin, then when God had seen fit to wipe almost all of creation out, he took man's wickedness into account (they're stupid and can't help themselves????) and permitted them to begin consuming the other creatures. And remember that when He first 'demonstrated' a result of that sin, He also used it as a lesson, (i.e. I have to kill this sweet, furry little bunny because of you bozo's) even while He cursed all man and woman kind (Genesis 3).

So it's not like He said,"'Hey, I got this great idea for future barbecue ingredients for you humans...", it was more of a 'the wages of sin is death' kind of moment as in 'sin = death= suffering/blood/gore'.

The next one Romans, is also after we 'proved how stupid we are' and the chapter actually is about how God accepts all of us so who are we to judge anyones relationship with God. Also about how we all stand alone before God. Or I could take a following verse out of context and show this: '21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.' Context is always critical to any dissemination of information.

The Acts verse is actually talking about how the Gentiles are now permitted to come to the Father and the Son. Since food was such a pivotal issue to the Jews, he used a symbol that would get their attention and stick in their minds even when their entire upbringing had taught for generations that Gentiles were to be avoided. An event worthy of 'myth and legend' as in a blanket lowered down from heaven with unclean things to EAT!!!

If you read the entire chapter 10 of Acts, you will see how it starts with a Gentile 'believer' named Cornelius having a need, moves over to Peter being told that God has made some things clean and not to refuse them, and then the Gentile believer shows up at his door and for the first time ever, Peter opens his door to a Gentile.

Exodus passage is again, after sin entered the world and we'd proved we were unreliable at best.

Why should I be careful QS? I'm not a Christian believer anymore. Besides I think what that verse is actually talking about is how each of those 'issues' only points towards the coming Christ and how now the believer is joined to Christ and not to let anyone who is judging them based on any of various possible issues, draw them away from the Saviour out of embarrassment or distraction or whatever. To remain strong and connected to Him and to the church. He's also pointing out that it's not rules that save you, so trying to be saved through adherence to a bunch of man made rules isn't going to do it. (see all of Colossians 2)

So actually the big difference in that last verse (Col.2) and the first verses in Genesis is that yours is talking about 'man-made rules' whereas Genesis is laying out what God intends for his creation. Personally, if I was a Christian, I'd be inclined to look at how 'my God' intended for me to live and then go from there.
Click to expand...


This verse from Genesis says it all

Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
Click to expand...


Since plants dont MOVE... I guess he means animals... He has given permission to eat animals.

You should be careful because the Bible tells us to NOT judge what other people eat... and you are just a tad Judgie aren't you? .

Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day - things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (
Click to expand...
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Debby, look at human teeth. We are neither herbivores nor carnivores. We have the dentition of omnivores.
We're meant to be hunter/gatherers, taking advantage of whatever is available to us in the environment..
I'm just thankful not to have to be a scavenger or carrion eater.
Click to expand...


I won't argue whether we are evolved to be carnivores or herbivores, although admittedly, a discussion on teeth, jaw strength, digestive enzyme types and digestive tract formation all points to a primarily plant diet. We are most definitely opportunistic feeders.

I think that in this day of earths existence, even if one isn't inclined to go with the compassion aspect of forgoing animal products, it is critical to look at the environmental aspects of what including meat in our diets is doing to the planet. From killing off oceans, to pollution of groundwater and air toxicity as well as the destruction of land and forests, meat consumption has been proven to be extremely problematic and less sustainable than a vegetarian diet. Not only has it been shown that meat production is possibly the largest source of GHG, but there's also the question of lack of efficiency in using said land for growing animals instead of plants to feed the billions on this planet.

And in my last comment, I was showing that it's not particularly helpful to use the Bible as ones proof that God created animals for the express purpose of us using them as food sources and specifically pointing out that pulling a verse here or there out as proof and thereby taking them out of context isn't useful. And as I said, it seems to me that if one is choosing to affix the Christian label to ones 'shirt front', then an examination of what God INTENDED for his creation would be the better way to make that decision.
 
QuickSilver said:
This verse from Genesis says it all



Since plants dont MOVE... I guess he means animals... He has given permission to eat animals.

You should be careful because the Bible tells us to NOT judge what other people eat... and you are just a tad Judgie aren't you? .
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Taking verses out of context is unworkable in any discussion QS. The verse you refer to comes out of Genesis 9 and is God talking to Noah after He has destroyed all life due to the sinfulness of man. Because there are no crops to harvest, He makes the concession to Noah that now he is allowed to kill animals. The beginning of that chapter also points to a change in how men and animals will interact from that point.

'...2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea;...'

And as the Bible story suggests that a good deal of time has passed between the Creation story and the flood, it would seem that for a significant amount of time (several generations?) God's people were probably not eating meat otherwise why would God choose that time to give permission. And the fact too, that God says to Noah that from that point on the animals will live in fear of humans seems to support the likelihood of a very different relationship with animals prior to that moment. And a quick reading of that chapter will show that plants were mentioned in the context of having been first given to man at the time of creation.


And again, the second verse you mention actually was relevant to a different type of conversation than you are trying to use it for. As I said before, that verse when taken in context, is direction that human made rules and traditions will not save you. That what is required is faithfulness to Christ.


I always find it interesting that a suggestion that living compassionately is a good thing to do, is judged (notice that???) to be' judgey'. I also find it interesting that defenders of meat eating (and particularly when it comes from Christian people) totally ignore Gods intention and they jump immediately to a concession made by God that is given because we've proven to be untrustworthy and weak.
 
QuickSilver said:
......You should be careful because the Bible tells us to NOT judge what other people eat... and you are just a tad Judgie aren't you? .
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Well I haven't gone back and checked all my posts but I don't think I said anything 'judgie'. I did express an opinion, just like you, like everyone else....

Can I tell you what I think? I believe we are all on individual and unique journey's which are all heading in the same direction. We're evolving to become the 'best' that we can be. And we're all at different places in those journeys and it won't be just one journey but will take many lifetimes, many journeys. I'm at a point in my evolution where I am compelled to decide whenever I possibly can, to choose what is beneficial to me and to the animals and even the environment. So I don't eat or wear animals, because to not suffer is definitely more beneficial for them. And if I take myself out of the market, that is some number of animals over my lifetime, who will not be bred for and born to meet the supply need that I might otherwise cause.

And that doesn't make me better than you or less than you, it just means we're at different places.....on journeys that are all heading the same way. So how then can I judge because at one point I had the same beliefs and understandings as most here. But while I will work very hard to not judge, I won't hesitate to give my opinion. And I'll be polite about it while I do that.
 
I have no problem with Thread-Morphs.. Most conversations go that way.. Someone says something, which reminds someone else about something and turns the conversation in a different direction.. This isn't a formal debate site where staying on topic is a must. IMO it makes the forum more interesting as one never knows which way a thread will turn..
 
Formal debate forums are boring - they're more interested in following protocols and rules than having a good time and possibly learning something new.

I like a little anarchy in my threads. ;)
 
SifuPhil said:
Formal debate forums are boring - they're more interested in following protocols and rules than having a good time and possibly learning something new.

I like a little anarchy in my threads. ;)
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Anarchy and quirkiness seem to be your favorite condiments and you sprinkle them liberally in your comments. Well we all enjoy the resulting je ne sais quoi flavor of your offerings.
 
Josiah09 said:
Anarchy and quirkiness seem to be your favorite condiments and you sprinkle them liberally in your comments. Well we all enjoy the resulting je ne sais quoi flavor of your offerings.
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;)

Well, sometimes the meat that is in the pot is a little tough to chew on, and I've found that a liberal dash of seasoning is just what the chef ordered.

Besides, I'm one of the younger people here - it's in my contract that I'm allowed to be child-like.

me-as-baby-lion.jpg
 
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