prisons

Butterfly said:
A "hold harmless" agreement protects one of the participants from liability. What I meant by that was just because his victims were gullible and fell for his con does not make him less liable for his actions. Thus, he shouldn't be "held harmless."

I never said he was harmless.

And even though his victims might have been "stupid and greedy" doesn't make him any less a crook. Stupid and greedy are not crimes. Con games are. And HE was greedier than all of them.
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Exactly...you tried to say {I} said he was harmless...which I did not.

As for.......

"Stupid and greedy are not crimes. Con games are. And HE was greedier than all of them."

"Con games are."......... Perhaps they shouldn't be ?....what ever happened to buyer beware ?

I am not absolving him from any wrong-doing....But it gets old hearing people saying...essentially , I was stupid & i fell for this or that.....well perhaps don't be so damn stupid. We always seem ready to hold some responsible for their actions....why not the others? If we as a society would stop [in so many incidences] running to the rescue....maybe people would learn?
 

rgp said:
Exactly...you tried to say {I} said he was harmless...which I did not.

As for.......

"Stupid and greedy are not crimes. Con games are. And HE was greedier than all of them."

"Con games are."......... Perhaps they shouldn't be ?....what ever happened to buyer beware ?

I am not absolving him from any wrong-doing....But it gets old hearing people saying...essentially , I was stupid & i fell for this or that.....well perhaps don't be so damn stupid. We always seem ready to hold some responsible for their actions....why not the others? If we as a society would stop [in so many incidences] running to the rescue....maybe people would learn?
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You're so right.
Retailers should be held equally responsible for shoplifting crimes because they foolishly make their merchandise so attractive and accessible.
Dumb people who get hit by drunk drivers are also culpable in the wrecks - they should know by the news reports that some drivers are drunk or impaired.
When a child gets kidnapped, raped, beaten, or murdered, no tears or justice for the naive family who knew the risk when they chose to have children.

Yes, let's stop running to the rescue of those who were victimized. Simply by existing they share in the blame.
 
StarSong said:
You're so right.
Retailers should be held equally responsible for shoplifting crimes because they foolishly make their merchandise so attractive and accessible.
Dumb people who get hit by drunk drivers are also culpable in the wrecks - they should know by the news reports that some drivers are drunk or impaired.
When a child gets kidnapped, raped, beaten, or murdered, no tears or justice for the naive family who knew the risk when they chose to have children.

Yes, let's stop running to the rescue of those who were victimized. Simply by existing they share in the blame.
Click to expand...
Qft.
 

rgp said:
Exactly...you tried to say {I} said he was harmless...which I did not.

As for.......

"Stupid and greedy are not crimes. Con games are. And HE was greedier than all of them."

"Con games are."......... Perhaps they shouldn't be ?....what ever happened to buyer beware ?

I am not absolving him from any wrong-doing....But it gets old hearing people saying...essentially , I was stupid & i fell for this or that.....well perhaps don't be so damn stupid. We always seem ready to hold some responsible for their actions....why not the others? If we as a society would stop [in so many incidences] running to the rescue....maybe people would learn?
Click to expand...

Once again, I NEVER said you said he was harmless. I said we could not hold him harmless simply because his victims were greedy. Look up "hold harmless" and see what it means. Hold harmless is a phrase used to mean holding one party to on agreement harmless from liability. It's a commonly used quasi-legal term.

And, no matter how "stupid" or "greedy" Madoff's victims were, he still cheated them out of their money; he preyed on those less knowledgeable than he, and he broke the law.
 
StarSong said:
You're so right.
Retailers should be held equally responsible for shoplifting crimes because they foolishly make their merchandise so attractive and accessible.
Dumb people who get hit by drunk drivers are also culpable in the wrecks - they should know by the news reports that some drivers are drunk or impaired.
When a child gets kidnapped, raped, beaten, or murdered, no tears or justice for the naive family who knew the risk when they chose to have children.

Yes, let's stop running to the rescue of those who were victimized. Simply by existing they share in the blame.
Click to expand...

You forgot to mention women who are not covered up between chin and ankle when they go out, because they are obviously "asking for it."
 
911 said:
You can take issue all you want. Here in PA and many other states, so long as no injuries are involved, it's considered a victimless crime. Not disagreeing that some people may be hurt financially, but as they say, no blood, no foul.

Prostitution in this state is also considered a victimless crime. Both the prostitute and the john will be sentenced accordingly, however, unless they have been to court on multiple occasions for the same offense, it's unlikely that they will see any jail time.

I have been to prisons in different states, but none compares to Angola in Louisiana. There are many supermax prisons in the U.S., so there may be a worse one, but I visited Angola for a training session back about 20 years ago and I saw guys in there that even scared the crap out of me. Gangs control Angola and even though they are locked in their cages for most of the day, they are still able to communicate with one another and do their business, like selling drugs. I think Angola may be the largest supermax prison in the U.S. Anyone in there, we do not want them out on the streets.
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There an awful lot of people in prisons who are beyond all rehabilitation and should NEVER be out.
 
StarSong said:
You're so right.
Retailers should be held equally responsible for shoplifting crimes because they foolishly make their merchandise so attractive and accessible.
Dumb people who get hit by drunk drivers are also culpable in the wrecks - they should know by the news reports that some drivers are drunk or impaired.
When a child gets kidnapped, raped, beaten, or murdered, no tears or justice for the naive family who knew the risk when they chose to have children.

Yes, let's stop running to the rescue of those who were victimized. Simply by existing they share in the blame.
Click to expand...


That's an apples & oranges comparison & you know it....I stand by my opinion.
 
I agree...."I also think that we need to reevaluate what constitutes a crime and what justifies a prison sentence. I think that too many young people are sitting in prison for stupid non-violent crimes and that some sort of organized community, state or national service might be a better option for them and the taxpayers...."

Saw a documentary on prison solitary confinement. Whenever a young man confined prisoner cracked up over his agoraphobic ongoing confinement--like bashing his head against the iron door window into a bleeding mess over & over again, he was charged with weeks more confinement! What a STUPID, ridiculous and cruel non-solution to his behavior! His crime was minor but he had been belligerent to officers so off to solitary confinement with him. I don't remember if he mentally ended up okay. (like sane...)
 
When my brother was imprisoned for murder, it was what was best for the community and for all of us who loved him. I'm afraid there was no helping him. He died in a prison hospital in the summer of 2016.

What to do with prisoners is a growing dilemma. I agree that too many are put in prison for minor offenses, like coming to this the U.S. seeking asylum. This has to change.
 
If one looks up "For profit" prisons and incarceration rates, that could be part of the answer. The states that have large numbers of these prisons are largely in the South and Midwest and their incarceration rates are far higher (with a few exceptions) than states with government run prisons. Googling "For profit prison by states" or similar wording should bring up the chart.

There's a strong incentive to keep these prison full at all times and lobbying efforts tend to shift policies to achieve this goal. And please, let's not shift this to murderers and rapists running wild in the streets. Every sensible person discussing this matter is normally referring to fringe crimes, the pot smoker (not dealer) comes to mind. Read the articles or charts and see if you think that their is a possible connection between "profits and prisoners".
 
justfred, you said, " over here" meaning the UK, but I think "over here' could be anywhere in the developed world. I'm not sure I want prisons to be hell holes. Nobody thinks they are going to wind up in jail. They're all too smart. And most are going to come back out again. You don't want some traumatized psychopath running around. And frankly, I don't know if jail works. Yeah, it gets some of them off the street for a while. And I don't have any problem welding shut the cell door of any murderer. We just don't know how to intervene to prevent criminal behavior. Jails, and torture don't work, if they did we wouldn't have people to throw into them. I think it's people are complex. They aren't one thing or another. If you look at those mobsters, who were hitmen. Most of them were married, and were loving parents. I wish I knew what really works with criminals. I do understand why people aren't happy with convicts living in a country club. Outside of making us feel better about someone getting "punishment" for his crime, I'm not sure "harsh conditions" have any benefit.
 
Anything that depends on taxpayer's monies is going to be inadequate.
Trying to get taxpayers to understand the dynamics in prison and then pay increased taxes is a hard sale.

(Pay heed to 911's post. he knows what he is talking about)

There are bad people in prison
There are semi-bad people in prison
The bulk of inmates are there for substance abuse offenses-some are criminals, some are not...
The substance abuse issues continue, we do not know how to deal with it.

If you are in a confined setting 24 hours a day it alters your outlook on all things.

Answers-I have none;
The American Criminal Justice System is a disgrace
The American Prison System is a disgrace.
 
Some thoughts about prisons, having spent some time in one (as a guest, but more about that later) and grown up in a town with a prison three blocks down from the house I grew up in.
  • Prisons today are where career criminals and gamg members get their street creds. For these people, prison is less a deterrent and more something desired. This leads to overcrowding and gang control of the yards
  • Prison is one place where destitute people can get three squares and warm bed. This leads to overcrowding
  • Prisons are overcrowded and understaffed, making them dangerous places that, in turn, makes it more difficult to get staff.
  • Prison racism and gang activity are on the rise, as are health problems that follow overcrowding and staff shortages.
  • Justice is slow and can be a joke to the criminal mind.
In the 1950s you could see prison inmates called "trustees" walking about in town doing menial work for wages. Prisoners also worked on the prison farm to grew the food for the prison and in the shops making things. Prisoners who were industrious and behaved were treated well. Others, not so well. The decisions and directions a prisoner had to make/take were binary, with consequences in each direction.

The prison had Friday night movies for the trustees and family members of the guards. I used to go with the kid behind me, whose father was a guard, to these movies. We sat in the theater with the prisoners. The prison was well staffed, working there was considered a good job and problems were severely dealt with. Things went down hill in the years after I left home. What was once a decent, orderly place became a hell hole as the political winds and associated funding targets shifted. The idea of consequences has gotten lost as society has become more litigious and societal norms changed.
 
rgp said:
Exactly...ya don't like prison conditions ? & or the thought of having to endure them ?..........Don't go to prison / Behave....pretty simple concept.
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You just don't get it do you? Some people who are in prison shouldn't be there. This is particularly true for the Black and Brown people. I just read of about four exonerations based on DNA evidence in the past month. The justice system is not equal, regardless of the "scales of justice" symbol. This has been proven time and time again, so don't bother to debate it with me. The Central Park 5 who were teens at the time, were coerced by cops into admitting to a rape they did not commit and were finally exonerated. A Black woman was sentenced to 20 years for firing a into the wall of her home to ward off an abusive husband. Why didn't the Florida Stand Your Ground Law apply to her?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fla-wo...rs-for-warning-shot-did-she-stand-her-ground/
A White woman can do much worse and get a slap on the wrist. Now I will say this...if someone does in fact commit a crime, especially a heinous one, they should be punished to the full extent of the law, I don't care who they are. The following applies to you as well.

Re the OP: For a look at what the prison systems are really about in the U.S. check out this Netflix documentary.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...E358C1BAE66682BE0921E35&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
 
I used to be part of a group that went into the prisons and put on three day Christian workshops and started a halfway house to help the guys after they got out. Some facts about the system we knew was that 76% of the guys in prison did not know where there next meal was coming from when they were on the outside. They did not hold steady jobs. 2018 study showed that 86% were arrested after release. 36% in the first three years. What I heard from the guys inside was that it was a right of passage and gave you bragging rights back on the street. They often had family inside too, like a family thing. No shame, no regret for what they did just for getting caught. Listening to them was like being at an AA meeting where the people get to tell haw really bad they were.
I think prison should be hell on earth, someplace even the bad guys are afraid to go. You want to rehabilitate them...Put them to work. Most of them never had to work, just getting up and doing a days work is an education. Teach them the things they should have learned as kids. Do your chores then you get to eat. Chain gangs used to get a lot of public work done.
 
Jondalar7 said:
I used to be part of a group that went into the prisons and put on three day Christian workshops and started a halfway house to help the guys after they got out. Some facts about the system we knew was that 76% of the guys in prison did not know where there next meal was coming from when they were on the outside. They did not hold steady jobs. 2018 study showed that 86% were arrested after release. 36% in the first three years. What I heard from the guys inside was that it was a right of passage and gave you bragging rights back on the street. They often had family inside too, like a family thing. No shame, no regret for what they did just for getting caught. Listening to them was like being at an AA meeting where the people get to tell haw really bad they were.
I think prison should be hell on earth, someplace even the bad guys are afraid to go. You want to rehabilitate them...Put them to work. Most of them never had to work, just getting up and doing a days work is an education. Teach them the things they should have learned as kids. Do your chores then you get to eat. Chain gangs used to get a lot of public work done.
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Guess you didn’t read Diva’s post. Two different worlds here.
 
Shalimar said:
Guess you didn’t read Diva’s post. Two different worlds here.
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Both are true. I met a guy who was a carpenter like me and was in for two years. He was taken away from a good job because he violated a restraining order from his ex wife three times. No confrontations, he claims he was just trying to get his tools back. Not every person deserves the punishment they get but we have a system of justice that works most of the time. I think it is better to put away a few that do not deserve it than to not put away as many violent people as possible. I think we should have public floggings for minor crimes and death penalty for 1st degree murder within six months. In response to Diva's post, men between the ages of 20 to 38 commit a majority of the crimes in this country so it just stands to be that they will be subject to the failures in our system more often. It is not the fault of our prison system but the fault of our society full of over indulged whiners.
 
Jondalar7 said:
Both are true. I met a guy who was a carpenter like me and was in for two years. He was taken away from a good job because he violated a restraining order from his ex wife three times. No confrontations, he claims he was just trying to get his tools back. Not every person deserves the punishment they get but we have a system of justice that works most of the time. I think it is better to put away a few that do not deserve it than to not put away as many violent people as possible. I think we should have public floggings for minor crimes and death penalty for 1st degree murder within six months. In response to Diva's post, men between the ages of 20 to 38 commit a majority of the crimes in this country so it just stands to be that they will be subject to the failures in our system more often. It is not the fault of our prison system but the fault of our society full of over indulged whiners.
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Adult flogging for minor crimes? Like in Singapore and Saudi Arabia? Not in a democracy. Good way to foment a revolution. Diva’s post pertains to race, and that is the fault of prison systems in your country and in mine, where being a person of colour greatly increases one‘s chance of being incarcerated whether or not one is guilty, or the punishment fits the crime. In Canada, it is primarily indigenous people who face that particular inequality.
 
I just read about the Norwegian prison system in a book called Humankind: A Hopeful History by Rutger Bregman and it seems to be working for them. Here's a Wikipedia article about the prison system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Norway

It's shocking to people who want criminals to be punished, but it's working. They have recidivism and crime rates that are amongst the lowest in the world. However many people would object to the level of freedom and quality of living they experience in prison.

Just as many people in the US don't want homeless people to get something for nothing even though it's been shown to cost less than just letting them go about their business I'm afraid the same would be true for having conditions for prisoners which have been proven to work elsewhere. If we saved money from being able to reduce our criminal justice system we'd be able to put that money into other areas.
 
Blacks are represented far to much in our prisons: What 20%, 30%; if your poor and cannot afford counsel, you going down.
The same can be said for poor whites or any other racial groups without funds.

Our alleged Justice System is to put you in jail,not justice-unless your rich.

Ft Worth, Tx Circa 30 years ago:
A millionaire attempted to kill his wife, he bullet missed, killing her daughter.
The millionaire hired the foremost criminal lawyer in TX.
The lawyer's bill ran into the millions. He hired nine full time investigators and several part time investigators to dig up dire on the his spouse.
Yes, the lady had a checkered past, but she was not on trial. The defense team threw so much smoke at the jury that they
found the millionaire not guilt.

You saw the same thing in the O. J. Simpson
Justice is for sale in Texas, I would assume that is the same throughout the nation.
 
Clyde, you won the lotto?'

Yep, 5 million

What'cha gonn'a do with it?

I'm gonn'a get drunk and drive wherever and whenever I please.🍸🍸🍸🍻🍻🍻🍻

You'll get locked up

Yep, and when I do, I'll take my lotto money and buy myself justice.
 

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