Tulsa mass shooting

Sunny said:
Yes, Gaer, we all know the person does the killing. The person with the gun. No one thinks the gun walked out on its own and started killing people. Why keep repeating this nonsense?

Without the gun, the person would be unable to do mass killing, certainly not on the scale that's being done now. Banning assault rifles would not turn everyone into a good person who means no harm. But they would be unable to go into a public place and start killing that many people in a few seconds. It's the gun that enables that.

What is there that's so hard for you to understand about this? There is absolutely no reason on God's earth for an ordinary civilian to own one of those weapons. They are used only to murder other people.
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The reason on God's earth for an ordinary civilian to own one of those weapons is that bad people already own them. How do you propose to take them away from them so other decent people don't need them?
 

Gaer said:
This "THEORY" was written by someone who has no respect or honor for the Constitution of the United States.
Probably not best to perpetrate it further, as it is quite obviously a falsity.
It's up to Americans to uphold and fight to protect our Constitutional amendments.
IMO
I know you all realize killings can be performed by varied weapons and guns are only a weapon of choice.
The gun doesn't do the killing. The person does the killing.
This is a mental health issue.
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Interesting that other countries, such as my own, which certainly have their share of folks with mental health issues, but lack the gun culture, don’t experience this repetitive carnage of innocents. As for the use of weapons other than guns, what stacks up to the kill power of automatic weapons?
 
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This has gotten ridiculous, and everyone has their opinion on whether these mass shootings are due to guns, mental illness or the lack of fortifying public places. I will keep my opinion to myself, but hopefully there will be some modicum of movement amongst our legislators in the White House. I've been hopeful in the past. Not so much now. Voting may be the only way to change this.

I was at our local mall last year when a mentally disturbed man was beating a skateboard on the floor and the emergency announcements started to go off. It was thought to be an active shooter situation. Everyone fled and I witnessed people being trampled as everyone tried to leave. I met a mother and daughter from out of town who were trying to find their way back to the parking garage from outside the mall and helped them get there.

We have become so fearful of gun violence in this country that even loud noises trigger us all. Again, this has become ridiculous.

Man whose daughter was injured during evacuation at NorthPark Center describes what they went through​


DALLAS - Thousands of people were terrified at NorthPark Center on Memorial Day when police said a man used his skateboard to make a noise that sounded like gunfire.
Now, a man whose 3-year-old daughter was injured during the stampede is speaking out about what he believes could’ve been handled better.

"The sirens went off, screaming, and then everybody runs at once," Daniel Gearner said.

Gearner’s daughter was trampled while people were running away from what turned out to be false call of an active shooter at NorthPark Center.

"And it was just like a complete stampede," he said. "She was screaming, crying."
Her head, eye, and neck were bruised and bloodied.
Looking back, mall-goers didn’t know the reported active shooter was actually a mentally disturbed man clanking a skateboard and then making hand gestures like he had a gun.
"You don’t know what the experience is like until it happens to you," Gearner said.
Nearly a week later, Gearner reflected on ways he could’ve been more prepared to keep his family safe.
"In the moment, you can’t even really see what’s happening around you, you’re just freaking out," he explained.
Gearner said he first heard sirens.
He didn’t immediately take action. He feels those 20-30 seconds cost him valuable time.
And by the time he picked his daughter up to run for safety, there was mass hysteria.
"So much just pushing and shoving," he recalled.
They were each knocked to the ground twice by people rushing from behind.
"I didn’t even have a chance to see is she OK, is she conscious, is she bleeding, none of that," he said. "It was, I’ve got to make it to the exit and out the door and make sure we make it out alive."
Making things worse, his phone fell out of pocket. His wife, who was locked down in a dressing room, couldn’t reach them for 45 minutes.
"You don’t even know what’s happening around you," he added.
Eventually, they were reunited and learned there was no shooter.
Still, Gearner is taking this opportunity to warn people to have a plan and immediately take action if ever in a situation like this.
Or one that isn’t a false call could prove to be worse.
"I think I would just head to the doors as soon as I thought maybe there’s a chance there could be something wrong," Gearner said. "You know that you have to do everything to get her out alive."
 
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Warrigal said:
Then you choose to live with carnage of innocents.
I call that being complicit in massacres, past, present and yet to take place.
J'accuse les citoyens pour les enfants mortes.
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I never said any such thing and I resent the implication ......

I choose to live with our constitution & the second amendent within it.
 
The 2nd AM was merely a rewrite of the State Militia provision in the Articles of Confederation. It cleary is addressed as such. If it is contrasted to the 2nd, it does not address an individual right, as is current case law.
 
ohioboy said:
The 2nd AM was merely a rewrite of the State Militia provision in the Articles of Confederation. It cleary is addressed as such. If it is contrasted to the 2nd, it does not address an individual right, as is current case law.
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@ohioboy thank you for always bringing insight and intelligence into these conversations.
 
Article VI: Articles of Confederation:

No vessels of war shall be kept up in time of peace, by any state, except such number only, as shall be deemed necessary by the united states, in congress assembled, for the defence of such state, or its trade; nor shall any body of forces be kept up, by any state, in time of peace, except such number only as, in the judgment of the united states, in congress assembled, shall be deemed requisite to garrison the forts necessary for the defence of such state; but every state shall always keep up a well regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accounted, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of field pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition, and camp equipage.
 
Shalimar said:
Interesting that other countries, such as my own, who certainly have their share of folks with mental health issues, but lack the gun culture, don’t experience this repetitive carnage of innocents. As for the use of weapons other than guns, what stacks up to the kill power of automatic weapons?
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You can't be serious.
168 deaths, over 860 injured.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

87 killed
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/15/...led-87-at-new-york-club-in-90-dies-at-61.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

88 killed, 450 injured
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack
 
Shalimar said:
Interesting that other countries, such as my own, who certainly have their share of folks with mental health issues, but lack the gun culture, don’t experience this repetitive carnage of innocents. As for the use of weapons other than guns, what stacks up to the kill power of automatic weapons?
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The AR-15 is actually a semi-automatic weapon, as are most pistols. The thing about the AR-15 is the velocity of the bullets. The bullet enters the body and starts tumbling, ripping tissue and organs to shreds. Victims bleed out quickly. Even if they make it to a hospital, surgeons often have nothing to sew back together because there's so much damage.
 
Yesterday, the Washington Post had an article stating that their have been 233 mass shootings in the US since January 1, 2022. Mass shootings were defined as those resulting in at least 4 deaths, not including the shooter.

They had an editorial in which the writer advocated for photos of people who have been shot and killed being placed in the media, so people can see what has actually happened to the victims. As it happens, I've thought that for a long time. I think too many people don't identify with the parents, spouses, children, other relatives, and friends of the victims. Being murdered just isn't part of their life plans or is simply so frightening to think about that they will not allow it to happen. Or maybe they think that since they own a gun, they will be able to take care of their loved ones - prevent them from being murdered.

I had more to say, but after I typed it, I realized it falls into the realm of politics. T
 
dseag2 said:
This has gotten ridiculous, and everyone has their opinion on whether these mass shootings are due to guns, mental illness or the lack of fortifying public places. I will keep my opinion to myself, but hopefully there will be some modicum of movement amongst our legislators in the White House. I've been hopeful in past. Not so much now. Voting may be the only way to change this.
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Now there's a sensible suggestion, a referendum. The UK did much the same to pull out of EU membership. There's lots of arguments, and insults too, but just like the election of a government, the majority of the vote is the accepted way to go.

For many years my wife and I visited the US, often twice a year, but the time that we came within the vicinity of a killing by rifle was the last time we were in the US. It saddened us both. In the UK you can go a lifetime and never see a weapon, certainly not on the likes of any agency other than the police or armed forces and the two latter are only on rare occasions. You will never see, for example, a holstered side arm on a security guard or prison officer.

The British police don't carry arms by choice, it's a police decision not a political one.
 
horseless carriage said:
Now there's a sensible suggestion, a referendum. The UK did much the same to pull out of EU membership. There's lots of arguments, and insults too, but just like the election of a government, the majority of the vote is the accepted way to go.

For many years my wife and I visited the US, often twice a year, but the time that we came within the vicinity of a killing by rifle was the last time we were in the US. It saddened us both. In the UK you can go a lifetime and never see a weapon, certainly not on the likes of any agency other than the police or armed forces and the two latter are only on rare occasions. You will never see, for example, a holstered side arm on a security guard or prison officer.

The British police don't carry arms by choice, it's a police decision not a political one.
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You have it wrong. British Police DO carry firearms, including military ones such as the H&K MP5, and the Canadian made C7 rifle. Armed Police officers are a part of every Police service in all parts of the United Kingdom, every day, Armed Police attend when a subject has a weapon or has used a weapon. You may be thinking about "regular patrol officers " who in fact do not carry firearms. Here is a link to photos of British armed Police on patrol. photo of armed british police in 2020 - Bing images JimB.
 
Over the 2022 Memorial Day weekend in Chicago, 57 people were shot, nine fatally. Happens consistently. Chicago has supposedly strict gun laws. And yet…. Y’all talk about the “gun culture” but no one ever talks about the thug culture in our big cities. It’s not just Chicago. It’s New York, it’s Baltimore, it’s every big city. And it’s not just thugs shooting other thugs. It’s innocent bystanders Also getting killed, including kids.

This is a multifaceted problem. Look at the incredibly violent movies Hollywood puts out, then piously shakes their finger at “gun nuts.” Look at the first person shooter video games. Look at the open disrespect people on line, in the media, have for those with differing opinions.

I have no answers. But the media is happy to call the Tulsa shooting a mass murder, then ignore what’s going on in other cities.
 
Warrigal said:
Once again, the argument about mental illness is raised.
Do Americans think that mental illness is not a problem in other countries?
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Absolutely mental illness is a problem world wide. I think the difference is that regulating the purchase isn't uniform. A slice of the variance

State-Level Gun Law Statistics​

On the state level, seven U.S. states completely ban any open carry activity. Only eight of the 50 states require that people who own firearms register their weapons with the state. Twenty-two states in the U.S. enforce regulations known as deadly force laws.
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There is also something called the Stand Your Ground Law. For many people, this law creates instances where murder is excusable and legal. For others, they are in full support of the right to defend their property, selves, families, and belongings. No matter your opinion on the law, the truth of the matter is that twenty-seven states in the U.S. uphold the Stand Your Ground Law.
 
Knight said:
Absolutely mental illness is a problem world wide. I think the difference is that regulating the purchase isn't uniform. A slice of the variance

State-Level Gun Law Statistics​


There is also something called the Stand Your Ground Law. For many people, this law creates instances where murder is excusable and legal. For others, they are in full support of the right to defend their property, selves, families, and belongings. No matter your opinion on the law, the truth of the matter is that twenty-seven states in the U.S. uphold the Stand Your Ground Law.
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Uniform laws and regulations are important if anyone wants to create a safer environment for children, church goers, medical staff and other vulnerable people.

I realise that this requirement is next to impossible in the US environment and I find that very sad.
 
Shalimar said:
Interesting that other countries, such as my own, which certainly have their share of folks with mental health issues, but lack the gun culture, don’t experience this repetitive carnage of innocents. As for the use of weapons other than guns, what stacks up to the kill power of automatic weapons?
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Quantity makes a difference? I guess one at a time is so usual the loss doesn't get the same media mass coverage.
https://graphics.suntimes.com/homicides/

Homicides in Chicago: a list of every victim​

Graphics by Jesse Howe and Andy Boyle
Updated: June 3rd, 2022
This database lists the names of everyone killed by another person in the city of Chicago. It’s compiled from Chicago Sun-Times reporting and information from law enforcement agencies and the Cook County medical examiner’s office and updated every day.
244 victims were killed in Chicago in 2022.

One at a time yet the numbers are high for one city in the 1st. 6 months.
 
Warrigal said:
Uniform laws and regulations are important if anyone wants to create a safer environment for children, church goers, medical staff and other vulnerable people.

I realise that this requirement is next to impossible in the US environment and I find that very sad.
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I do too. I don't think a uniform set of laws will eliminate the carnage but any reduction would be welcome.
 
Look at the incredibly violent movies Hollywood puts out, then piously shakes their finger at “gun nuts.”
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I do agree with you about the movies, Carol. But because of the plots of so many movies and TV series, the violence is probably unavoidable. Even the excellent series such as Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, have a surprising amount of violence (gun fights and other forms of violence), but those are about drug cartels vs. law enforcement, so what can we expect?

For a certain number of "disturbed" individuals, somehow these scenes of movie violence and shooter video games seem to plant the insane notion in their heads that they should get an assault weapon and express their anger or hatred by killing as many innocent people as possible.

I'm not advocating movie censorship by any means. But the carnage can be greatly reduced by removing access to these assault weapons by civilians. People who are non-law enforcement, and non-military, have no business having them in their possession.
 
@Sunny, do you ever wonder about gun violence in movies and the practice of paying big money for product placement? It is a question worth asking IMO.

One of the first tools we used to suppress cigarette smoking was to ban tobacco advertising in movie theatres, sporting venues and on TV. Much of the advertising was designed to entice kids and young adults to take up smoking.

Over time other measures were adopted including plain packaging. Deaths from lung cancer have diminished over time as older people quit and less young people took up the habit. Needless to say the tobacco industry, which constantly denied that cigarettes caused cancer, fought these measures tooth and nail.
 
Interesting point Warrigal. Whenever I see one of those old movies, I am always kind of shocked by the amount of smoking in them.

Are the gun manufacturers funding movies that have a lot of shooting? Who knows, I guess it's possible.
 

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