What Do Real Muslims Believe?

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OneEyedDiva said:
Too bad you are so misinformed. In fact, Muslim women were given rights over 1,400 years ago, as stated in the Holy Quran, that women in this country didn't have, such as the right to own property, own their own businesses, participate in politics, get divorces, receive alimony (except if the woman was found guilty of open lewdness), the right to inheritance and handle their own finances. When I took a womens' study course around 1985 (I went to college as an adult), there were states in this country where women could not inherit property. And do you recall when women's suffrage was and why it took place? Look it up. it's late now so I won't take the time to do what I'd normally do...find links for you.
Also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said this about husbands and wives and this advice still stands and is often repeated by Muslim Imams and authors. "The best of men are those who are good to their wives" Muslim men are advised concentrate on their wives' good traits and overlook the negative ones. Muslim men are told they should ask their wives' permission to leave the conjugal bed (ie: make sure she's satisfied).They are also advised to seek counsel from their wives in important matters, help their wives around the house and stay involved with raising the children. Muslim husbands and wives are advised to "play together", to enjoy one another and be "blankets" for one another (eg: protection).
Clearly you have overlooked the number of abused women in this country who are not Muslims, whose husbands are not Muslims in keeping with your propensity for tunnel vision! And it's not just some Muslim women who get abused...it's some women of all races, creeds, religions and social backgrounds. Some of that is cultural...not religious.
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QFT.
 

Shero said:
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Note to Diva: Last evening I did not give you a satisfactory reply because I was tired after two days of moving. I still may not understand what you mean, but will try:

Lara says: “Allah and God are not really the same.” For her that is true because according to her religion God is Jesus -so- in my humble opinion you should not feel you can dispute that.

Diva says: “Lara...I beg to differ. Jesus is not God.” For you this is true too because according to your religion Jesus is not God.

So, therefore we reach a stalemate since you are both correct according to your religious teaching.
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I certainly understand being too tired to write all you'd like to write. I haven't had the chance to read through this entire long thread yet (Gosh I didn't expect all these replies!!!) but my response to @Lara was because she said Muslims do not have a real relationship with God (or words to that affect). So she infringed on my religious beliefs first with misinformation and it's my duty to inform her correctly. That led to me explaining why I said what I said...thus my replies about Jesus.

Consider the following with your thinking cap on..okay.
~How the hell does someone say that Muslims who pray 5 times a day...directly to God don't have a relationship with Him?
~The Bible said God created heaven and earth. How could Jesus have been the creator if he wasn't born yet?
~Jesus told the council he was not worthy to be worshipped when they tried to trick him into saying he was.
~Jesus told his followers to worship as he worshipped. Jesus did not worship himself! Jesus worshipped God....the same God that Muslims worship and give thanks to for even the littlest things.
~Jesus has been misrepresented in more ways than one over the centuries.
@Lara @Aneeda72 @Pecos @feywon @Warrigal
 
OneEyedDiva said:
I certainly understand being too tired to write all you'd like to write. I haven't had the chance to read through this entire long thread yet (Gosh I didn't expect all these replies!!!) but my response to @Lara was because she said Muslims do not have a real relationship with God (or words to that affect). So she infringed on my religious beliefs first with misinformation and it's my duty to inform her correctly. That led to me explaining why I said what I said...thus my replies about Jesus.

Consider the following with your thinking cap on..okay.
~How the hell does someone say that Muslims who pray 5 times a day...directly to God don't have a relationship with Him?
~The Bible said God created heaven and earth. How could Jesus have been the creator if he wasn't born yet?
~Jesus told the council he was not worthy to be worshipped when they tried to trick him into saying he was.
~Jesus told his followers to worship as he worshipped. Jesus did not worship himself! Jesus worshipped God....the same God that Muslims worship and give thanks to for even the littlest things.
~Jesus has been misrepresented in more ways than one over the centuries.
@Lara @Aneeda72 @Pecos @feywon @Warrigal
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My thinking cap is tightly on and this is what I say!!

I had no real intention of returning to this thread, but out of politeness this is what I have to say. I am not a religious person. I believe in God, but I do not pray to God 5 times a day. I pray to God with every breath I take. I was hoping for some diplomatique mediation . Finally, what I would like to say is:

First: Jesus never wrote a word during his lifetime. Others came long after him and wrote what they thought he said, did, etc.

Second: Muhammad, could not read and write himself. He depended on scribes to write for him and a lot of opinions formed over a long time., so who knows what is true or not.

Finally, in my opinion it is all hearsay and I do believe both you and Lara are correct according to your teachings, as I said before!

I do not wish to offend anyone, so I am finished here.

La fin!!
 

OneEyedDiva said:
Too bad you are so misinformed. In fact, Muslim women were given rights over 1,400 years ago, as stated in the Holy Quran, that women in this country didn't have, such as the right to own property, own their own businesses, participate in politics, get divorces, receive alimony (except if the woman was found guilty of open lewdness), the right to inheritance and handle their own finances. When I took a womens' study course around 1985 (I went to college as an adult), there were states in this country where women could not inherit property. And do you recall when women's suffrage was and why it took place? Look it up. it's late now so I won't take the time to do what I'd normally do...find links for you.
Also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said this about husbands and wives and this advice still stands and is often repeated by Muslim Imams and authors. "The best of men are those who are good to their wives" Muslim men are advised concentrate on their wives' good traits and overlook the negative ones. Muslim men are told they should ask their wives' permission to leave the conjugal bed (ie: make sure she's satisfied).They are also advised to seek counsel from their wives in important matters, help their wives around the house and stay involved with raising the children. Muslim husbands and wives are advised to "play together", to enjoy one another and be "blankets" for one another (eg: protection).
Clearly you have overlooked the number of abused women in this country who are not Muslims, whose husbands are not Muslims in keeping with your propensity for tunnel vision! And it's not just some Muslim women who get abused...it's some women of all races, creeds, religions and social backgrounds. Some of that is cultural...not religious.
@Pecos
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Try selling that nonsense to the Taliban.

Try selling that nonsense to the Saudis , where, until quite recently, women could not even get a drivers license.

Try selling that nonsense to the Muslim women who are not allowed to even go shopping for groceries without her husband or one of his close relatives.

Try selling that nonsense to Muslim women who are forced to wear truly bizarre clothing which covers every square inch of their bodies … including their faces.

Try selling that nonsense to any Muslim woman who has been beaten by Muslim men in the streets.

Try selling that nonsense to the spirits of women who have been stoned to death.

Try selling that nonsense to the women and girls of Afghanistan where, until the Americans came, it was illegal to teach any female to read and write.

Good heavens , woman, get a grip.
R.jpgR.jpg
 
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Do some reading. Women under Islam had (and still have) rights from the beginning that were not at that time guaranteed in western culture. They are not the same as the rights we enjoy under modern laws but ever since Islamic girls learned to read the Koran for themselves they have been able to claim their rights.

Abuse of women and restriction of their freedoms is not primarily caused by religion. It is caused by male dominance, male power and male privilege.

Malala Yousafzai is an example of the difference education can make. She has studied the Koran and no doubt the writings of scholars and she spoke out. The Taliban had other ideas about the role of women and girls and attempted to silence her. They were protecting their male power, not their Holy Book. At least, that is how I see it.
 
Lara said:
Allah and God are not really the same.
Jesus Christ is significant in the Christian profile.

Muslims don't believe Christ as Savior nor God. I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that there is no personal relationship between Muslims and Allah. Christ is the bridge between Christians and God for developing a personal relationship.

I respect all good people from other religions that don't agree with my religion. God says love one another. And I do.
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OneEyedDiva said:
I certainly understand being too tired to write all you'd like to write. I haven't had the chance to read through this entire long thread yet (Gosh I didn't expect all these replies!!!) but my response to @Lara was because she said Muslims do not have a real relationship with God (or words to that affect). So she infringed on my religious beliefs first with misinformation and it's my duty to inform her correctly. That led to me explaining why I said what I said...thus my replies about Jesus.

Consider the following with your thinking cap on..okay.
~How the hell does someone say that Muslims who pray 5 times a day...directly to God don't have a relationship with Him?....
Click to expand...

You misquoted me Diva and highlighted it in Bold. Also in Bold that "I infringed on your religious beliefs" which appears angry. Please let me clarify.

I didn't say "Muslims do not have a "real" relationship...I said a "personal" relationship. And, I said "I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere". In other words, I'm no expert on Allah.

Christians refer to having a "personal" relationship with God through Christ because we believe the Spirit of God appeared as Christ in human form, so He could relate to us "personally". We pray to God "in Jesus name" so it's personal to us in that way.

Christians believe by biblical faith that God is in 3 forms, God the Father (spirit form), God the Son (human form), and God the Holy Spirit (the comforter, healer, giver of blessings like joy, etc). Some don't believe this. We were created with free will to choose our own beliefs.

If that's not Allah's way then that's okay with me for the Muslims...but it's not the God Christians know. That's the difference.

I was just discussing what the difference might be having "pretty sure read it somewhere". This is a discussion after all. My apologies if what I said wasn't clear and upset you in any way... *handshake* and a *hug*🤗
@Pecos @Warrigal @Shero
 
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OneEyedDiva said:
Too bad you are so misinformed. In fact, Muslim women were given rights over 1,400 years ago, as stated in the Holy Quran, that women in this country didn't have, such as the right to own property, own their own businesses, participate in politics, get divorces, receive alimony (except if the woman was found guilty of open lewdness), the right to inheritance and handle their own finances. When I took a womens' study course around 1985 (I went to college as an adult), there were states in this country where women could not inherit property. And do you recall when women's suffrage was and why it took place? Look it up. it's late now so I won't take the time to do what I'd normally do...find links for you.
Also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said this about husbands and wives and this advice still stands and is often repeated by Muslim Imams and authors. "The best of men are those who are good to their wives" Muslim men are advised concentrate on their wives' good traits and overlook the negative ones. Muslim men are told they should ask their wives' permission to leave the conjugal bed (ie: make sure she's satisfied).They are also advised to seek counsel from their wives in important matters, help their wives around the house and stay involved with raising the children. Muslim husbands and wives are advised to "play together", to enjoy one another and be "blankets" for one another (eg: protection).
Clearly you have overlooked the number of abused women in this country who are not Muslims, whose husbands are not Muslims in keeping with your propensity for tunnel vision! And it's not just some Muslim women who get abused...it's some women of all races, creeds, religions and social backgrounds. Some of that is cultural...not religious.
@Pecos
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Women are treated differently in different Muslim countries. It's more a matter of politics than religion. Saudi Arabia is typically the worst offender. I've attached a good summary below. I don't think mistreatment of women is inherent in Islam, just as OneEyedDiva has said; I think it's a political/sexist misinterpretation of Islam. However that does lead to significant abuses.

https://www.dw.com/en/womens-rights-in-the-islamic-world/a-40714427
 
senior chef said:
Try selling that nonsense to the Taliban.

Try selling that nonsense to the Saudis , where, until quite recently, women could not even get a drivers license.

Try selling that nonsense to the Muslim women who are not allowed to even go shopping for groceries without her husband or one of his close relatives.

Try selling that nonsense to Muslim women who are forced to wear truly bizarre clothing which covers every square inch of their bodies … including their faces.

Try selling that nonsense to any Muslim woman who has been beaten by Muslim men in the streets.

Try selling that nonsense to the spirits of women who have been stoned to death.

Try selling that nonsense to the women and girls of Afghanistan where, until the Americans came, it was illegal to teach any female to read and write.

Good heavens , woman, get a grip.
View attachment 186515View attachment 186516
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You are the one who needs to 'get a grip'--on your prejudices.
You also need to learn more about history of the world.

Christians have been and continue be as guilty of patriarchal BS oppression of women as the Muslim extremist groups.
 
senior chef said:
Try selling that nonsense to the Taliban.

Try selling that nonsense to the Saudis , where, until quite recently, women could not even get a drivers license.

Try selling that nonsense to the Muslim women who are not allowed to even go shopping for groceries without her husband or one of his close relatives.

Try selling that nonsense to Muslim women who are forced to wear truly bizarre clothing which covers every square inch of their bodies … including their faces.

Try selling that nonsense to any Muslim woman who has been beaten by Muslim men in the streets.

Try selling that nonsense to the spirits of women who have been stoned to death.

Try selling that nonsense to the women and girls of Afghanistan where, until the Americans came, it was illegal to teach any female to read and write.

Good heavens , woman, get a grip.
View attachment 186515View attachment 186516
Click to expand...

Whenever I see pictures such as this, I have to ask, "What are Muslim men so afraid of?"
 
This is the last i'm going to post on this thread:

This thread was an opportunity for those of you who have never actually known any Muslims to learn something--you could have asked questions of a practicing member of the faith why she converted, or about her daily habits that are related to her faith, about how her her faith informs who she is as a human being. Why when you acknowledge you don't know much about the faith (except what you read in biased biased media and social media commentaries) would you presume to make statements about that faith instead of inquiring of a member of it what they believe?


And can someone please explain me to how it is acceptable to judge all Muslims by an extremist group that as JimBob1952 said has more to do with politics (and patriarchal power i'd add) than religion but when anyone starts citing all the abuses and atrocities committed by Christians the response is always---'Oh, well that's not MY brand of Christianity' or 'That's not real or all Christians'. And while there are many subdivisions of Christianity (Not all believe in the Holy Trinity, tho they accept the importance of Jesus) there are subdivisions and differences in how various Muslims interpret and practice their faith. Why the double standard?

The Abrahamic Religions in general have always fostered Patriarchal dominance. The exceptions have been some of the words attributed to Jesus and some of Muhammed's writings. It says more about some followers of each faith than about the faith itself that way too many who claim those faiths ignore and/or distort the teachings of those they claim to 'worship'---but it really says nothing about those who choose to follow Christ and Muhammed's teachings more closely.

All faith's and philosophies get distorted overtime to suit the personal feelings and the purposes/agendas of those citing scriptures or philosophical treatises as their guide. i have heard people distort Buddhist and Hindu principles to suit their needs, but i certainly wouldn't judge all of either group by what those few do/say. i keep telling atheists that use the atrocities committed in the name of various faiths as reasons to not have any kind of spirituality that 'religion' itself also does a lot of good and the fault is not in the concepts of various faiths--but in how some people practice/apply/distort the concepts. That is to say--the less attractive qualities of human nature (greed,need for power/dominance over others) are the problem not the spirituality and religions in and of themselves.
 
feywon said:
You are the one who needs to 'get a grip'--on your prejudices.
You also need to learn more about history of the world.

Christians have been and continue be as guilty of patriarchal BS oppression of women as the Muslim extremist groups.
Click to expand...
feywon said:
This is the last i'm going to post on this thread:

This thread was an opportunity for those of you who have never actually known any Muslims to learn something--you could have asked questions of a practicing member of the faith why she converted, or about her daily habits that are related to her faith, about how her her faith informs who she is as a human being. Why when you acknowledge you don't know much about the faith (except what you read in biased biased media and social media commentaries) would you presume to make statements about that faith instead of inquiring of a member of it what they believe?


And can someone please explain me to how it is acceptable to judge all Muslims by an extremist group that as JimBob1952 said has more to do with politics (and patriarchal power i'd add) than religion but when anyone starts citing all the abuses and atrocities committed by Christians the response is always---'Oh, well that's not MY brand of Christianity' or 'That's not real or all Christians'. And while there are many subdivisions of Christianity (Not all believe in the Holy Trinity, tho they accept the importance of Jesus) there are subdivisions and differences in how various Muslims interpret and practice their faith. Why the double standard?

The Abrahamic Religions in general have always fostered Patriarchal dominance. The exceptions have been some of the words attributed to Jesus and some of Muhammed's writings. It says more about some followers of each faith than about the faith itself that way too many who claim those faiths ignore and/or distort the teachings of those they claim to 'worship'---but it really says nothing about those who choose to follow Christ and Muhammed's teachings more closely.

All faith's and philosophies get distorted overtime to suit the personal feelings and the purposes/agendas of those citing scriptures or philosophical treatises as their guide. i have heard people distort Buddhist and Hindu principles to suit their needs, but i certainly wouldn't judge all of either group by what those few do/say. i keep telling atheists that use the atrocities committed in the name of various faiths as reasons to not have any kind of spirituality that 'religion' itself also does a lot of good and the fault is not in the concepts of various faiths--but in how some people practice/apply/distort the concepts. That is to say--the less attractive qualities of human nature (greed,need for power/dominance over others) are the problem not the spirituality and religions in and of themselves.
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Well thought out post.
 
feywon said:
You are the one who needs to 'get a grip'--on your prejudices.
You also need to learn more about history of the world.

Christians have been and continue be as guilty of patriarchal BS oppression of women as the Muslim extremist groups.
Click to expand...
JimBob1952 said:
Well thought out post.
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Huh? Well thought out? feywon's reply, "get a grip on your prejudices" was directed toward @senior chef in post #254, and I'm not defending him. But what about your own prejudices toward Christians, feywon? And judging us as "patriarchal BS oppression"?? If you had read the New Testament you would know all the answers to your questions. But I'll answer them in a short version.

I'm sorry to hear you have so much anger and animosity toward Christians of today. Maybe this will help...

This thread is not about "the history of the world". It's not about the Old Testament even. It's about now...today. You said "Christians continue to be guilty of patriarchal BS". Are you talking about the Pope? I'm not Catholic but...So What if they want a leader they all agree on? If someone doesn't like it they can pick a different church. That's the beauty of many different churches...we all can worship how we choose.

Are you talking about how God created man to be physically stronger and expected to be the leader of the household in the Old Testament? And women were meant to nurture, heal, to have children at a time when it was necessary to populate the earth. When a husband and wife argue about a household decision and no side is a winning then someone has to end up making a decision. It was to facilitate peace, harmony, and order. It was to keep the family together. It wasn't in the 10 Commandments. It's not a requirement to get to heaven.

There is one chapter in the NT that admonishes women in the Church of Corinth to be silent...it's not oppression when read in context. It was because they were gossiping and being loud which was disruptive in the church and a reason for using men as the church leaders as well. You have to agree that many (not all) women are more into gossip and being catty than men. It wasn't oppression of women. It was natural consequences.

Christians of today are using the New Testament as a guide for becoming more Christ-like each and every day. If they aren't trying then they aren't obeying God.

feywon, you said, "...will someone please explain when anyone starts citing all the abuses and atrocities committed by Christians the response is always---'Oh, well that's not MY brand of Christianity' or 'That's not real or all Christians'."

It's because the Bible is crystal clear, "By their fruits ye shall know them". It further says if a "christian" sins the same sin over and over and doesn't repent, then "They will say Lord Lord and I will know them not".
 
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Pepper said:
I know plenty of Christians, Catholic & Protestant and I never met one who was constantly blabbing about it. They know what they are. They just are.
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Same for Muslims. I chat with the Muslim family that owns the convenience store on the corner and we blab a lot, but I doubt we blabbed about religion more than twice in the 5 years I've known them. One of their sons likes to blab about baseball. The mom, dad, and old uncle like it when I bring Paxton with me. They like to blab with him.
:giggle:
 
Real Muslims believe the ideology of Islam written in the Quran, which is available in libraries all over the world, some with the Arabic on half the page and the English translation made by a high ranking Muslim scholar on the other half. The ideology of Christ and the Buddha and some other religious leaders, are personal self-improvement courses not aimed at controlling other people. The Quran, on the other hand, contains civilian laws for controlling others and harsh punishments Muslims are to administer to each other for breaking those laws. It also contains the rules of engagement for war, which are not present in the teachings of Jesus, Buddha and other peaceful ideologies. These harsh civilian laws collected from the Quran, called Sharia Law, is the law of the land in most predominately Muslim countries, and include beatings, beheadings, chopping off body parts, wife beating, and so on. Saudi Arabia still practices beheadings in the public square.
 
I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about anything Muslim but I'm going to mention something I saw on TV, Criminal Minds to be specific. An agent of the FBI, Special Agent Jason Gideon, was interviewing a Muslim man who was being held in prison at Guantánamo Bay. The Muslim man was accused of planning a bombing in the US. At the end of the interview Gideon asks the Muslim man, what did we ever do to offend you? And the man replies, you offend me by existing. To me, that's chilling.

That particular episode was written by an FBI agent and won a Human Rights Award for Excellence in Television.

I realize TV is not a good source for documentation but it's unnerving to think how many Muslims are out there with that attitude.
 
TabbyAnn said:
Real Muslims believe the ideology of Islam written in the Quran, which is available in libraries all over the world, some with the Arabic on half the page and the English translation made by a high ranking Muslim scholar on the other half. The ideology of Christ and the Buddha and some other religious leaders, are personal self-improvement courses not aimed at controlling other people. The Quran, on the other hand, contains civilian laws for controlling others and harsh punishments Muslims are to administer to each other for breaking those laws. It also contains the rules of engagement for war, which are not present in the teachings of Jesus, Buddha and other peaceful ideologies. These harsh civilian laws collected from the Quran, called Sharia Law, is the law of the land in most predominately Muslim countries, and include beatings, beheadings, chopping off body parts, wife beating, and so on. Saudi Arabia still practices beheadings in the public square.
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Spot on, Tabby.
 
caroln said:
I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about anything Muslim but I'm going to mention something I saw on TV, Criminal Minds to be specific. An agent of the FBI, Special Agent Jason Gideon, was interviewing a Muslim man who was being held in prison at Guantánamo Bay. The Muslim man was accused of planning a bombing in the US. At the end of the interview Gideon asks the Muslim man, what did we ever do to offend you? And the man replies, you offend me by existing. To me, that's chilling.

That particular episode was written by an FBI agent and won a Human Rights Award for Excellence in Television.

I realize TV is not a good source for documentation but it's unnerving to think how many Muslims are out there with that attitude.
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Indeed ! The number one Muslim goal is to ultimately conquer all countries and wipe out all other religions. If only 1% of all Muslims think like that, then there are over 15,000,000 who think like that.
 

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