What is Feminism?
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Smiling Jane
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I agree. I believe it's up to women to define feminism.
Also, no flank attacks that involve quoting people the rest of us don't know and never will, as if they should be given the power to dominate the conversation. It's a distraction, not helpful.
Smiling Jane
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Did you actually read what I said? Obviously not.
From Wikipedia:
Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve political, economic, personal, and social equality of sexes.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] This includes seeking to establish educational and professional opportunities for women that are equal to those for men.
Feminist movements have campaigned and continue to campaign for women's rights, including the right to vote, to hold public office, to work, to earn fair wages or equal pay, to own property, to receive education, to enter contracts, to have equal rights within marriage, and to have maternity leave. Feminists have also worked to ensure access to legal abortions and social integration, and to protect women and girls from rape, sexual harassment, and domestic violence.[SUP][3][/SUP] Changes in dress and acceptable physical activity have often been part of feminist movements.[SUP][4]
[/SUP]
Feminist campaigns are generally considered to be a main force behind major historical societal changes for women's rights, particularly in the West, where they are near-universally credited with achieving women's suffrage, gender neutrality in English, reproductive rights for women (including access to contraceptives and abortion), and the right to enter into contracts and own property.[SUP][5][/SUP] Although feminist advocacy is, and has been, mainly focused on women's rights, some feminists, including bell hooks, argue for the inclusion of men's liberation within its aims because they believe that men are also harmed by traditional gender roles.[SUP][6][/SUP] Feminist theory, which emerged from feminist movements, aims to understand the nature of gender inequality by examining women's social roles and lived experience; it has developed theories in a variety of disciplines in order to respond to issues concerning gender.[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8]
[/SUP]
Numerous feminist movements and ideologies have developed over the years and represent different viewpoints and aims. Some forms of feminism have been criticized for taking into account only white, middle class, and college-educated perspectives. This criticism led to the creation of ethnically specific or multicultural forms of feminism, including black feminism and intersectional feminism.[SUP][9][/SUP]
Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve political, economic, personal, and social equality of sexes.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] This includes seeking to establish educational and professional opportunities for women that are equal to those for men.
Feminist movements have campaigned and continue to campaign for women's rights, including the right to vote, to hold public office, to work, to earn fair wages or equal pay, to own property, to receive education, to enter contracts, to have equal rights within marriage, and to have maternity leave. Feminists have also worked to ensure access to legal abortions and social integration, and to protect women and girls from rape, sexual harassment, and domestic violence.[SUP][3][/SUP] Changes in dress and acceptable physical activity have often been part of feminist movements.[SUP][4]
[/SUP]
Feminist campaigns are generally considered to be a main force behind major historical societal changes for women's rights, particularly in the West, where they are near-universally credited with achieving women's suffrage, gender neutrality in English, reproductive rights for women (including access to contraceptives and abortion), and the right to enter into contracts and own property.[SUP][5][/SUP] Although feminist advocacy is, and has been, mainly focused on women's rights, some feminists, including bell hooks, argue for the inclusion of men's liberation within its aims because they believe that men are also harmed by traditional gender roles.[SUP][6][/SUP] Feminist theory, which emerged from feminist movements, aims to understand the nature of gender inequality by examining women's social roles and lived experience; it has developed theories in a variety of disciplines in order to respond to issues concerning gender.[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8]
[/SUP]
Numerous feminist movements and ideologies have developed over the years and represent different viewpoints and aims. Some forms of feminism have been criticized for taking into account only white, middle class, and college-educated perspectives. This criticism led to the creation of ethnically specific or multicultural forms of feminism, including black feminism and intersectional feminism.[SUP][9][/SUP]
Traveler
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Up to women to define feminism ? It seems rather strange that men are not allowed to take part in the conversation, especially since men are the direct target of feminism.
My opinion, your opinion, or the opinion of any man, when that opinion does not completely support the feminist agenda, is not to be tolerated. Feminism has gotten such a bad name precisely because men are viewed by angry feminists as the enemy. Feminists feel they have a perfect right to dictate who gets to speak and how they speak.
Smiling Jane
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- Albuquerque NM
I feel so fortunate that Traveler is so willing to control all conversations about feminism. Don't know what we would do without him to explain what's wrong with us.
Traveler
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It's high time SOMEONE speaks up.
Question: Do you think blacks have a right to speak up about the KKK ?
Question: Do you think the Jews of Nazi held Europe had a right to define what Nazism was REALLY all about .
I feel quite sure both the KKK and the Nazi's would have loved to be the only ones to define what they were/are about.
Other people have opinions. When those opinions are suppressed, then we are all in deep trouble.
Not surprising that you would put women into the same category as the KKK and Nazi's. And, yes, I do mean women, not just feminists because you posted that way about women in general before the topic of feminism was even brought up. I therefore take your opinions about feminists with a grain of salt because of you having already expressed anger at women in general.
Traveler
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There is much that Nazi's , the KKK and feminists have in common.
1st. All 3 are "true believers". They all believe that they, and they alone, are/were correct and everyone else is wrong.
2nd, All 3 are/were quite willing to go to any lengths to get their own way.
3rd. All 3 have a clearly defined enemy. The Nazi's blamed the Jews for their problems. The KKK blames blacks for their problems. And the feminists blame men for their problems.
4th. All 3 use propaganda to portray themselves as victims.
5th. All 3 see themselves as superior beings.
6th All 3 have declared war on people who they see as enemies. ie anyone who disagrees with them
7th. All 3 do not/did not care one iota about people they see as their enemies.
8th. All 3 lack any tolerance for a difference of opinion.
The OP asked the question, "What is feminism?" I reply that since feminists declared war on men, and upon women who disagree with them, they made themselves the enemies of everyone else.
1st. All 3 are "true believers". They all believe that they, and they alone, are/were correct and everyone else is wrong.
2nd, All 3 are/were quite willing to go to any lengths to get their own way.
3rd. All 3 have a clearly defined enemy. The Nazi's blamed the Jews for their problems. The KKK blames blacks for their problems. And the feminists blame men for their problems.
4th. All 3 use propaganda to portray themselves as victims.
5th. All 3 see themselves as superior beings.
6th All 3 have declared war on people who they see as enemies. ie anyone who disagrees with them
7th. All 3 do not/did not care one iota about people they see as their enemies.
8th. All 3 lack any tolerance for a difference of opinion.
The OP asked the question, "What is feminism?" I reply that since feminists declared war on men, and upon women who disagree with them, they made themselves the enemies of everyone else.
Warrigal
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Traveler, it is a characteristic of young idealistic men and women that they become very angry when they discover that the world is neither just nor fair. This anger manifests differently in men and women. I'll leave you to think about how it surfaces in young men but in my days of young womanhood I was angry about the obstacles that were strewn across my path simply because I was born a girl. I was often goaded by men friends, supposedly in jest, but my response was to argue passionately for changes to occur. Typically I was dismissed or laughed at which did nothing to improve my mood.
I did not consider men the enemy but their attitude then was a problem. Since that time things have improved a lot. I stopped being angry because it is a pointless emotion that eats away at us from within. The men I knew then have matured and are no longer as ignorant. Having daughters and grand daughters tends to provide another perspective on how women and girls should be treated.
Feminism means different things to different people. My grandfather, who had five daughters and one son, was a feminist. Way back then, early last century, he was a champion of girls' education. He always said that education was "no load to carry" and "when you educate a boy you educate one person but when you educate a girl, you educate a whole family". In many ways, this is what global feminism is all about - lifting up poor populations by making sure that the girls have access to education. It is the first step in the liberation of any oppressed people.
Sunny provided you with a Wiki description of the various facets of feminism. I respectfully suggest you lay down your own anger for a bit and contemplate that passage because it has much to offer.
I did not consider men the enemy but their attitude then was a problem. Since that time things have improved a lot. I stopped being angry because it is a pointless emotion that eats away at us from within. The men I knew then have matured and are no longer as ignorant. Having daughters and grand daughters tends to provide another perspective on how women and girls should be treated.
Feminism means different things to different people. My grandfather, who had five daughters and one son, was a feminist. Way back then, early last century, he was a champion of girls' education. He always said that education was "no load to carry" and "when you educate a boy you educate one person but when you educate a girl, you educate a whole family". In many ways, this is what global feminism is all about - lifting up poor populations by making sure that the girls have access to education. It is the first step in the liberation of any oppressed people.
Sunny provided you with a Wiki description of the various facets of feminism. I respectfully suggest you lay down your own anger for a bit and contemplate that passage because it has much to offer.
Traveler
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Warrigal, I have no problem with any aspect of the Wiki post, at least not as far as it goes. However, the Wiki post is one dimensional and does not take into account how feminism plays out in the real world. Out here, in the real world, any "ism" often gets extremely nasty.
Thus, my take on the Wiki post is that it is a highly polished view of a very complicated revolutionary subject. In other words, the Wiki post, in the words of the media, is nothing more than political spin.
Do I believe that some feminists are kind and reasonable people ? Yes, absolutely !
Do I believe that there are feminists who are extremely unkind and unreasonable ? Yes, there can be no question about that. What percentage of all feminists comprise that latter group, I could not say. Of one thing I am certain. That latter group has alienated many people, both male and female. It is from that rather large group of alienated people that the term "femi-nazi" originated.
I ask you to consider that peoples lives have been turned up-side-down and that people are rarely happy to be forced to change, especially when they were raised one way and out of the clear blue sky comes a revolutionary idea that profoundly impacts their lives.
In summary, people on both sides of the issue have been severely wounded. Some of those wounds will never heal, for they have cut too deeply.
Thus, my take on the Wiki post is that it is a highly polished view of a very complicated revolutionary subject. In other words, the Wiki post, in the words of the media, is nothing more than political spin.
Do I believe that some feminists are kind and reasonable people ? Yes, absolutely !
Do I believe that there are feminists who are extremely unkind and unreasonable ? Yes, there can be no question about that. What percentage of all feminists comprise that latter group, I could not say. Of one thing I am certain. That latter group has alienated many people, both male and female. It is from that rather large group of alienated people that the term "femi-nazi" originated.
I ask you to consider that peoples lives have been turned up-side-down and that people are rarely happy to be forced to change, especially when they were raised one way and out of the clear blue sky comes a revolutionary idea that profoundly impacts their lives.
In summary, people on both sides of the issue have been severely wounded. Some of those wounds will never heal, for they have cut too deeply.
Warrigal
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- Sydney, Australia
In the real world wounds tend not to heal if you keep picking at them, or if some infection is allowed to enter and flourish.
In the psychological sense (and no, I am not qualified in this area in case you are wondering) some wounds are surface deep and heal quickly by themselves and others are very deep indeed. Deep wounds require time, and sometimes a little bit of help from a professional.
However, I have found personally that sometimes we refuse to allow healing to occur by our own rancorous thoughts. I was hurt as a young woman by my grandmother who had a less than loving manner and a cutting tongue. I should have gotten over her words fairly quickly. Instead I cut her out of my life and refused to have anything to do with her and did not even attend her funeral. I kept reminding myself that she had hurt me and as long as I did that, the hurt had power over me.
I kept picking at my wound and the wound became infected by self pity.
Long story short, I matured and realised that I too had inflicted pain. Too late now to ask for forgiveness, I forgave both of us and made an act of contrition by placing flowers on a grave in Singapore. It belonged to one of my uncles, Grandma's eldest son who was killed in Malaya by Japanese troops as they advanced on Singapore in 1942. No member of the family had ever visited the grave and to my knowledge none has been there since except Hubby and I. As I placed the tropical flowers on the grave I whispered "This is for you, Grandma", and the hurt was finally healed without any residual scar.
Take it from this old feminist, who is not, not ever has been any sort of Nazi, that men and women go through stages that are not all confined to our childhood and adolescence and we learn some of life's lessons very painfully. We must leave the pain behind us or the accumulated weight of many hurts will break us eventually.
I uphold freedom as a value. I believe that is should be enjoyed by men and by women but abuse of freedom is something that I would caution against. If some feminists abuse the freedom of other women, or of menfolk, then remember that that is not the objective of feminism. Remember too that men have long been abusing their freedoms without being aware of it because it was the societal norm.
In the psychological sense (and no, I am not qualified in this area in case you are wondering) some wounds are surface deep and heal quickly by themselves and others are very deep indeed. Deep wounds require time, and sometimes a little bit of help from a professional.
However, I have found personally that sometimes we refuse to allow healing to occur by our own rancorous thoughts. I was hurt as a young woman by my grandmother who had a less than loving manner and a cutting tongue. I should have gotten over her words fairly quickly. Instead I cut her out of my life and refused to have anything to do with her and did not even attend her funeral. I kept reminding myself that she had hurt me and as long as I did that, the hurt had power over me.
I kept picking at my wound and the wound became infected by self pity.
Long story short, I matured and realised that I too had inflicted pain. Too late now to ask for forgiveness, I forgave both of us and made an act of contrition by placing flowers on a grave in Singapore. It belonged to one of my uncles, Grandma's eldest son who was killed in Malaya by Japanese troops as they advanced on Singapore in 1942. No member of the family had ever visited the grave and to my knowledge none has been there since except Hubby and I. As I placed the tropical flowers on the grave I whispered "This is for you, Grandma", and the hurt was finally healed without any residual scar.
Take it from this old feminist, who is not, not ever has been any sort of Nazi, that men and women go through stages that are not all confined to our childhood and adolescence and we learn some of life's lessons very painfully. We must leave the pain behind us or the accumulated weight of many hurts will break us eventually.
I uphold freedom as a value. I believe that is should be enjoyed by men and by women but abuse of freedom is something that I would caution against. If some feminists abuse the freedom of other women, or of menfolk, then remember that that is not the objective of feminism. Remember too that men have long been abusing their freedoms without being aware of it because it was the societal norm.
Seems my entry on this thread has vanished
Guess I got incredulous for a moment
Even got off track
It’s just that when someone lumps me (a man) into their slant on what men think or have to do, well, goddammit, I gotta speak from the gut
‘Having to do’ simply does not exist, not with the fairer gender of this specie
Getting to….that’s how it is
It’s not a competition
It’s not even-steven
It IS a balance
Being with a woman is a kinder, gentler event
It’s good fortune, a blessing in a harsh world
Maybe I’m the polar opposite of some males that call themselves men
And that’s OK
I’m prolly way ol’ fashioned
Just don’t lump me with you
OK
I feel better
Whoever has command of the delete button, delete away
Traveler
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Warrigal, I agree with most everything you have just posted. I would , however, like to add that feminism goes far, far beyond equal rights in education, financial, reproductive rights and equality in the work place. I would ask you to consider that feminism has, from the very beginning, attempted to control the sexual nature of men. It is no secret that feminism has been attempting to dictate what men "should or should not do" in the arena of romance.
Our culture has openly embraced the entire LGBTQ concept. But, when it comes to how men behave sexually, feminists, at least very many of them, still insist on trying to dictate what is and is not, politically acceptable. To cite one example of dozens, if I started to talk about Playboy magazine it would be like waving a red cloth at a bull and would be sure to elicit numerous sarcastic remarks from feminists.
Men are sexual creatures. We act on our sexual drives from our teens onward. This applies equally to gay men as well as straight men. Being sexually active comes as naturally to men as climbing high up does to a cat. All any man has to do is open his mouth about his desires and some feminist is sure to make a snide remark about him. I can't begin to tell you how many hundreds of times I have read or heard some feminist remark that "it is just a male fantasy". This is always accompanied by a facial sneer. She says this as if there is something wrong with men's sexual desires.
I, personally, find this feminist attitude repugnant, and I object most strongly. Men are "hard-wired" to be sexual. It is written in our DNA. How dare any feminist tell men what we are allowed to think or condemn what we most enjoy ?
Advocating for equal rights is one thing, but attempting to control men's sexual desires is something else.
Our culture has openly embraced the entire LGBTQ concept. But, when it comes to how men behave sexually, feminists, at least very many of them, still insist on trying to dictate what is and is not, politically acceptable. To cite one example of dozens, if I started to talk about Playboy magazine it would be like waving a red cloth at a bull and would be sure to elicit numerous sarcastic remarks from feminists.
Men are sexual creatures. We act on our sexual drives from our teens onward. This applies equally to gay men as well as straight men. Being sexually active comes as naturally to men as climbing high up does to a cat. All any man has to do is open his mouth about his desires and some feminist is sure to make a snide remark about him. I can't begin to tell you how many hundreds of times I have read or heard some feminist remark that "it is just a male fantasy". This is always accompanied by a facial sneer. She says this as if there is something wrong with men's sexual desires.
I, personally, find this feminist attitude repugnant, and I object most strongly. Men are "hard-wired" to be sexual. It is written in our DNA. How dare any feminist tell men what we are allowed to think or condemn what we most enjoy ?
Advocating for equal rights is one thing, but attempting to control men's sexual desires is something else.
Warrigal
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- Sydney, Australia
Women are sexual creature too. Attempting to control men's sexual desires is puritanism, not feminism.
Women want agency in sexual matters. We want consensual, not forced sex. We would like sexual climax too.
We would like to initiate sexual encounters without being condemned for doing so. This is feminism.
I think the youngsters are already in that place. My generation? Not so much.
Women want agency in sexual matters. We want consensual, not forced sex. We would like sexual climax too.
We would like to initiate sexual encounters without being condemned for doing so. This is feminism.
I think the youngsters are already in that place. My generation? Not so much.
Traveler
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I truly do not understand how you can possibly believe that it is not feminists who are trying so very hard to control men's sexual desires.
Even a casual reading of feminist writings, about men's magazines will quickly disabuse you of that notion.
Of course women want consensual, not forced sex. That is understood by any compassionate person. I would never argue otherwise.
As for agency, ie power, in sexual matters I suppose that all depends upon how you define power. As I have said in other threads,
women already have total, or near total, control of the sexual arena. A man might try for sex, but it is always the woman who makes the final decision. Yes, yes, I know. It is her body and, of course, it is her absolute right to say yes, or no. All I'm saying is that it is never the man who makes that decision.
As for female sexual climax, we both fully understand that the female body differs greatly from that of the male. For every person who has ever walked the earth, the man absolutely must have reached climax. The same is not true of women. If no woman ever had a climax, the population of the earth would continue to increase. I sympathize, but nature designed women that way. It is unfortunate that many, many men haven't the first clue about how a woman reaches climax. All I can suggest is that women take some personal responsibility and teach their men what is required. On a lighter note, I recall a film where an actress said, "Englishmen don't know what a tongue is for".
I don't know who condemns women for initiating sex. Perhaps it is other women who do so. I have heard some women make negative comments about other women, as in, "She is a slut". I don't recall ever hearing any man complain that the woman initiated sex. I guarantee that I never complained or condemned any woman for initiating sex.
Warrigal
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Once again, we seem to be looking at an issue from such different viewpoints that we are unlikely to ever understand each other.
I am a feminist but I am nothing like your picture of one. I'll leave it at that.
I am a feminist but I am nothing like your picture of one. I'll leave it at that.
Traveler
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I am unaware that simply participating is a conversation is equivalent to controlling it. Is there no room in feminism for a difference of opinion ? It seems to me that there is a faction within feminism which feels that only a woman can be right in all things ? I have no desire to insult anyone but that does seem rather arrogant.
Traveler
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In my personal experience, I find that it is quite common for a man and a woman to have opposing views on a wide variety of subjects, husbands and wives, for example. Undoubtedly you have a lifetime of experiences which gives you one view point. I also have a lifetime of experiences, quite different from your own, which gives me a totally different view point.
Peace
Traveler, have you tried reading the Wikipedia definition of feminism that I posted in note #30? How could a movement promoting equal rights for both sexes possibly fit into the hysterical scenario you are presenting here? Anything can be be equated with the Nazis and the KKK; that doesn't mean they really belong together. In fact, male brutality against women probably fits in with the Nazis and the Klan a lot more than feminism does.
Read the Wikipedia discussion, and for heaven's sake, calm down!
Traveler
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I have read the Wiki post, several times. Did you bother to read my post #39 where I discussed the Wiki post ? The difference between us is that you accept it as Gospel, while I do not. I have never, not one single time, in all my 71 years heard of any feminist even acknowledge that men may have some important issues to discuss. As a matter of fact, when I bring up issues where men are discriminated against, those points are either belittled or outright ignored. Just one time I'd love to hear a feminist argue for equality in child custody courts.
And, Sunny, I am quite calm. Don't mistake my debate for hysteria or anger. I am quite capable of arguing against any number of philosophies, such as creationism, without becoming agitated.
It never ceases to amaze me that so many people choose to ignore valid points. Do you happen to recall my talking about the man who was battling breast cancer ? Do you recall how he was turned away from a 5km run for breast cancer awareness because he was not female ? Not one single person in this thread has made one comment about that. That speaks volumes about the so-called feminist "support" for the rights of both sexes.
Please don't think, not for one second, that I am the only person who feels this way. After all, I did not invent the term femi-Nazi.
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