What is Feminism?

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Posted by Warrigal
"I did not consider men the enemy but their attitude then was a problem. Since that time things have improved a lot..."

I understand that the era you grew up in was a different time, however your generalization of "men and their attitude" appears to be a similar thread throughout these posts, you appear to be painting the group with the same brush.

I completely understand having worked tirelessly with victims of crimes (all genders) that ones perspective is very much related to many factors. Their upbringing, religion, education, life experience, work experience. All of those things define an individual and it only takes a negative {sometimes not even a serious one} that changes their perspective.

It takes a long time for that person to learn trust again. Sometimes they never will, sometimes with much intrepidation. However that in itself does not translate into giving one permission in the damning of a whole group. That is not feminism, that is called something else.
 

If "Feminism" is being used to bring about positive change for women as in safety, equality, quality of life etc and that movement is ALSO inclusive of furthering equality and a better life for everyone (yes including men) then there is absolutely no reason to have a debate. If anyone was against this then they should remove themselves from the human race.

If however "modern feminism" is being used as a ruse for something else, such as revenge, superiority, domination, discrimination on any level, towards any group, then it really should be labelled as something else.

Thank you for your patience Ruthanne. I do believe at the end of the day that we all want the same thing.

To celebrate and respect the differences that are unique to each gender, to bring about equality and positive change that will make everyone's life that much better, and to renounce all forms of hate and discrimination.

That'll be it from moi. I'll now return to posting pictures of my cat and talk about the weather.

Thank you.
 
James said:
Posted by Warrigal
"I did not consider men the enemy but their attitude then was a problem. Since that time things have improved a lot..."

I understand that the era you grew up in was a different time, however your generalization of "men and their attitude" appears to be a similar thread throughout these posts, you appear to be painting the group with the same brush.

I completely understand having worked tirelessly with victims of crimes (all genders) that ones perspective is very much related to many factors. Their upbringing, religion, education, life experience, work experience. All of those things define an individual and it only takes a negative {sometimes not even a serious one} that changes their perspective.

It takes a long time for that person to learn trust again. Sometimes they never will, sometimes with much intrepidation. However that in itself does not translate into giving one permission in the damning of a whole group. That is not feminism, that is called something else.
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Whoa! Hold your horses!

If I appear to you to be painting a whole group with the same brush, then please allow me to clarify. Yes, I was speaking historically and geographically of the time when I was a young woman, wife and mother - say from 1963 to about 1975, in Australia. Expectations of how I should live my life then were strongly imposed from the outside. Some of the pressure came from older women (I did mention my mother) but the put downs tended to come exclusively from younger men. It was their attitude that I objected to, not the men themselves. They were my friends and neighbours, and as I said earlier, over time these attitudes changed as their daughters grew to womanhood. The arrogance of youth gave way to the understanding of maturity.

As for damning a whole group based on personal experiences, isn't that what has been occurring in this thread? Some feminists are nasty, ergo, all feminists hate men??? I begin to wonder how many feminists some people have ever met.

I call myself a feminist although I have never been part of a collective, nor have I ever marched for women's rights. However I appreciate the efforts of first and second wave feminists who have forced changes that today's young women have benefited from. Many of these women never married but were active in progressive causes such as the union struggles or civil rights and I will always honour their fighting for social justice for men and for women.
 

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James said:
If "Feminism" is being used to bring about positive change for women as in safety, equality, quality of life etc and that movement is ALSO inclusive of furthering equality and a better life for everyone (yes including men) then there is absolutely no reason to have a debate. If anyone was against this then they should remove themselves from the human race.

If however "modern feminism" is being used as a ruse for something else, such as revenge, superiority, domination, discrimination on any level, towards any group, then it really should be labelled as something else.

Thank you for your patience Ruthanne. I do believe at the end of the day that we all want the same thing.

To celebrate and respect the differences that are unique to each gender, to bring about equality and positive change that will make everyone's life that much better, and to renounce all forms of hate and discrimination.

That'll be it from moi.

Thank you.
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Two outstandingly rational posts. James, you have hit the nail exactly on the head. We have seen, over and over again, posters playing the victim card. They seem to think that THEY, AND THEY ALONE, are the only ones to have ever been hurt. Using the victim card does not empower women, it makes them crippled and weaker.

Moreover, blaming others merely creates a sub-class of individuals with a built-in reason for failure of the entire group. The victim card, or the race card for that matter, are outmoded concepts. People of any gender or race who have succeeded have done so because they have refused to be victims.

Feminists like to think that they speak for ALL women. They do not. There are tens millions of women who reject the entire concept of feminism. And, they refuse to be identified as feminists. Furthermore, they proudly and loudly say to feminists, "Don't you dare put your label on me".

I, too, will now sign off this thread. It appears to be going in circles. Have a nice day to everyone who has posted.:dontworry:
 
Traveler said:
Feminists like to think that they speak for ALL women. They do not. There are tens millions of women who reject the entire concept of feminism. And, they refuse to be identified as feminists. Furthermore, they proudly and loudly say to feminists, "Don't you dare put your label on me".
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funny how that is

Traveler said:
Men are constantly having to do, or not do, something the wife/GF wants.
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"Let's be very clear: Strong men - men who are truly role models - don't need to put down women to make themselves feel powerful. People who are truly strong lift others up. People who are truly powerful bring others together." - Michelle Obama
 
Sunny said:
"Let's be very clear: Strong men - men who are truly role models - don't need to put down women to make themselves feel powerful. People who are truly strong lift others up. People who are truly powerful bring others together." - Michelle Obama
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Quite obviously, here is yet another case of a feminist double standard. They expect men to be supportive, or at minimum mute, while feminists ceaselessly make negative, often viscous, remarks about men. The feminist message to men is quite clear, "Support everything we say, or shut the hell up".

Some men may act like well-trained, submissive, lap dogs, there are others who will bite when kicked.
 
Smiling Jane said:
Agreed, and the process of recovering to survive abuse is exactly the same as the stages of grief. One of the stages that lasts longest and is hardest to get through is anger, but it's also very cathartic. When the anger subsides, healing happens. I've always had to acknowledge my anger before I could let it go and move on.
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Yes, you make very good points. Many don't understand how others grieve, too.
 
Traveler, didn't you say a few notes up that you are leaving this thread?

However, since you are still here, your latest remark is just screaming for a reply.

Quite obviously, here is yet another case of a feminist double standard. They expect men to be supportive, or at minimum mute, while feminists ceaselessly make negative, often viscous, remarks about men. The feminist message to men is quite clear, "Support everything we say, or shut the hell up".
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Do you remember the old TV show, The Honeymooners, starring Jackie Gleason as an ignorant bully? His tag line to his long-suffering wife was, "One of these days, Alice, POW! Right in the kisser!"

This was considered "funny" back in those good old days. It makes Archie Bunker look like an urbane gentleman by comparison. At least he never threatened his wife with physical violence.

So, should we use Ralph as an example of all men? If their wives continues to make wisecracks they don't like, they will get punched in the face? Is this how "men" interact with "women?" Yes, some men. But fortunately,
not most.

Traveler, you are repeating yourself ad nauseum. You are inventing a stereotype based on the most extreme minority of a group, and using this ridiculous image to give yourself an excuse for boastful puffery. But the image you are presenting of feminists can be described as being "straw dogs."

There may be some extreme people on the fringe who have the attitudes you are accusing women of having; if you look hard enough, there are always some extreme cases out there with every scenario under the sun. But to keep labeling the feminist movement with this stuff either demonstrates extreme ignorance (and you are refusing to listen to what virtually every woman on this forum is saying), or a deliberate attempt to provoke a fight,
never mind if the fight makes any sense or not.

Some men may act like well-trained, submissive, lap dogs, there are others who will bite when kicked.
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And most women don't want either lap dogs or snarling beasts. They want intelligent human beings who stand equally with them as loving partners.

This whole discussion has gotten beyond ridiculous.
 
I'll not respond to such drivel as posted above by Sunny. So, since my words are twisted, or belittled or ignored, I'll let feminists speak for me.

"The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men". --- Sharon Stone

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class hatred of men".
Robin Morgan, Editor of Ms. magazine.

"The nuclear family must be destroyed. The break-up of families is now in an objectively revolutionary process". ---- Linda Gordon

I want to see a man, any man, beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth like an apple in the mouth of a pig".
Andrea Dworkin

"Rape is nothing more than a conscious process of intimidation by which ALL men keep all women in a state of fear".--- Susan Brownmiller

"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women's movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women can not be won without the abolition of marriage". Shelia Cronin, Leader of The National Organization of Women (N.O.W.)

"Marriage is an institution developed from the practice of rape". Andrea Dworkin

"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that results in a drastic reduction of males. ----- Mary Daly

"The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race". ---- Sally Miller Gearhart

"Marriage works better for men than women. The two happiest groups are married men and unmarried women" --- Gloria Steinem

"Marriage: A ceremony which puts a ring on the lady's finger and through the nose of the man". ---- Gloria Steinem

I could easily quote hundreds of similar writings by well known feminists. I respectfully suggest that you re-read all of the above quotes and ask yourselves what feminism is TRULY about.
 
Traveler said:
I'll not respond to such drivel as posted above by Sunny. So, since my words are twisted, or belittled or ignored, I'll let feminists speak for me.


I could easily quote hundreds of similar writings by well known feminists. I respectfully suggest that you re-read all of the above quotes and ask yourselves what feminism is TRULY about.
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Geeezus
and you read that crap
no wonder
 
Interesting thread. It seems to me that equating extreme, hate inducing elements of feminism with the rank and file, is analogous to equating Westboro Baptist Church with the majority of Christians. For the record, I am a feminist, so is the present generation of my family, including my outspoken, charismatic son. He is no more likely to be anyone’s lapdog than I.
 
Shalimar said:
Interesting thread. It seems to me that equating extreme, hate inducing elements of feminism with the rank and file, is analogous to equating Westboro Baptist Church with the majority of Christians. For the record, I am a feminist, so is the present generation of my family, including my outspoken, charismatic son. He is no more likely to be anyone’s lapdog than I.
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When the leaders of the feminist movement make such outrageous, hate-filled, statements, it is prudent to pay attention. (see post #91)

Personally, I don't think denial benefits anyone.

In any event, there are always exceptions within any group. I don't doubt for one minute what you say about yourself or your son. I'm sure both of you are fine people. However, that does not belie the fact that feminism is rife with misandry.
 
Traveler said:
When the leaders of the feminist movement make such outrageous, hate-filled, statements, it is prudent to pay attention. Personally, I don't think denial benefits anyone. (see post #91)
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Wow, you and I definitely have disparate takes on Sunny’s post. I see a measured, informative statement, nothing drivelish or denial inducing. With respect, to label those who disagree with one’s position is a slippery slope. Yes, in any movement there will be angry people, however, to disparage feminists, female and male, for the sake of a strident few, insults my great

grandmother, jailed for being a suffragette, beaten and force fed, myself for the struggles necessary to flourish in a male dominated profession, and to promote changes in the absurd pro rapist legal system. Good luck getting a conviction as an adult unless you are beaten. This applies to male victims also. A thought occurs to me, Philly is alpha male, yet has no difficulty with feminism.
 
Shalimar, please read post #91. THAT is what I'm talking about when I say outrageous, hated filled, statements.
 

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