Are there ANGELS?

[Sunny]

And the folks who don't believe in angels, aren't they sort of proselytizing too?

I don't think so, Carol. My understanding of "proselytizing" is trying to convert someone else to one's religious beliefs. Saying you do not share those beliefs to someone who is proclaiming them to be the truth is not proselytizing, it's just expressing skepticism.

Otherwise, someone could say the tooth fairy really exists, and if you say, "No, she doesn't," you are proselytizing.

 

[rgp]

I don't think so, Carol. My understanding of "proselytizing" is trying to convert someone else to one's religious beliefs. Saying you do not share those beliefs to someone who is proclaiming them to be the truth is not proselytizing, it's just expressing skepticism.

Otherwise, someone could say the tooth fairy really exists, and if you say, "No, she doesn't," you are proselytizing.

Isn't your last sentence just denying ? There is no hint of trying to convert/persuade..........

From Wiki..........

{ Proselytizing }
"the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another."


Yeah I know........fighting with everyone....LOL!!

 

[Knight]

Satan is a FALLEN angel and the leader of the Demons of the Underworld of all Evil.
God will not kill Satan (although He could). God's plan includes good and evil because He didn't want to create Robots. He created man to be able to choose between good and evil. And to choose to turn away from temptations in order to be obedient to God, to choose to love God, and fellowship with God.

Are you sure that was the plan? I remember Adam & Eve were not supposed to eat from the tree of knowledge. No choice between good & evil just a directive not to eat from one particular tree. By choosing to eat that tells me there was a flaw in a perfect creation. Why would a being supposedly capable of creating a universe and humans fail to create something with no flaws? Maybe even more puzzling. Why continue to keeping alive the very beings he was so angry with? Seems obvious the evil was still there in the family that was left.

 

[chic]

Of the examples of ''angel experiences'' that I've read, like Lara's way back on this thread, the experiences are about people that have been kind to you or said something nice or happened to be around to help you in some way. Those are kind and helpful people, even people who put their life on the line to save you from disaster, like that ranger on the news yesterday who pulled this guy from a car seconds before a train hit his car. Yet, religious people call them angels. Are your angel experience about good humans trying to help? I've met many of them but never thought of them as ''angels''. I would believe them as angels if I see them disappear into air after they help me, only then.ave had

Yes, and that's what I did see and I wasn't stoned or drunk at the time. My life was not in danger, but I was alone and in serious distress and the person did disappear without a trace or footprints in the snow, which there would have had to have been if the being who helped me was 100% human in the sense we know it. Give me a scientific explanation of how a human could not leave footprints in freshly fallen snow?

 

[Catlady]

Yes, and that's what I did see and I wasn't stoned or drunk at the time. My life was not in danger, but I was alone and in serious distress and the person did disappear without a trace or footprints in the snow, which there would have had to have been if the being who helped me was 100% human in the sense we know it. Give me a scientific explanation of how a human could not leave footprints in freshly fallen snow?

I would like more information, it's severely lacking in your post, perhaps you don't want to say because of privacy. That's okay if you don't, but I can't have an opinion if I don't know all/most of the facts.

Why were you in distress? How did the angel appear, did it walk through the door or appear out of thin air? What did it look like? Did it communicate and how, verbally or with ESP? How did it help you with your problem? How long was it there? All in all, it was either a true angel or you imagined it since you were in distress and since it did not leave footprints in the snow.

Again, you don't have to answer any of my questions, but for me to believe it was a "real angel'' I would need more info than you supplied.

 

[Catlady]

I remember Adam & Eve were not supposed to eat from the tree of knowledge. No choice between good & evil just a directive not to eat from one particular tree.

Seems obvious the evil was still there in the family that was left.

I've always had a problem with that ''tree of knowledge''. Was that knowledge about sex or knowledge in general? If God didn't want them to have sex, why make them with sexual organs? I think it had to do with sex because after eating the applle they were made to wear clothes and knew the feeling of shame. If it was general knowledge, why have a ''tree with the knowledge" available? Sounds like he was playing mind games with them.

The evil was there in the family that was left, since Cain killed Abel. Sounds like that ''first family'' instead of being perfect was quite dysfunctional. Also, they were supposed to be the first created yet when Cain was ready for a family he went to some town and found a wife. When the hell were THOSE people created, no mention of them until that trip.

 

[Liberty]

I've always had a problem with that ''tree of knowledge''. Was that knowledge about sex or knowledge in general? If God didn't want them to have sex, why make them with sexual organs? I think it had to do with sex because after eating the applle they were made to wear clothes and knew the feeling of shame. If it was general knowledge, why have a ''tree with the knowledge" available? Sounds like he was playing mind games with them.

The evil was there in the family that was left, since Cain killed Abel. Sounds like that ''first family'' instead of being perfect was quite dysfunctional. Also, they were supposed to be the first created yet when Cain was ready for a family he went to some town and found a wife. When the hell were THOSE people created, no mention of them until that trip.

You know, I've wondered why Eve just didn't kill the darn snake.

 

[Catlady]

You know, I've wondered why Eve just didn't kill the darn snake.

Ah, the poor snake, blamed for all the world's ills because it was an unwitting imaginary actor in the bible. Just like the goats personify Satan with cloven hooves. The ancient Jews even had a ritual where they abandoned a goat in the desert to die, carrying the sins of the village, that's how we got the word ''scapegoat''.

 

[Liberty]

Ah, the poor snake, blamed for all the world's ills because it was an unwitting imaginary actor in the bible. Just like the goats personify Satan with cloven hooves. The ancient Jews even had a ritual where they abandoned a goat in the desert to die, carrying the sins of the village, that's how we got the word ''scapegoat''.

Now that "scapegoat" thing is really interesting...right up there with the virgins being tossed into the volcano's to appease the "volcano gods".

 

[Sunny]

Rgp, I agree with you on this. My last sentence that you were referring to begins with "Otherwise." In other words, I was saying that denying or doubting someone else's assertions is not the same thing as proselytizing. Carol implied that it was.

PVC, that question about how Cain managed to find a wife, since the only woman alive on the planet at that time was his mother, is one that humorously comes up in religious classes and discussion groups all the time. Obviously, the authors needed a better editor. They could have put in a sentence saying that a nearby village somehow magically appeared.

Liberty, about the snake, he sounds to me like an early personification of the modern con man. "Psst, the rich guys don't want you to know this, but just take a bite of this apple here (subscribe to my service, etc.) and you will be one of the insiders with secret knowledge." Some things never change.

 

[rgp]

Rgp, I agree with you on this. My last sentence that you were referring to begins with "Otherwise." In other words, I was saying that denying or doubting someone else's assertions is not the same thing as proselytizing. Carol implied that it was.

PVC, that question about how Cain managed to find a wife, since the only woman alive on the planet at that time was his mother, is one that humorously comes up in religious classes and discussion groups all the time. Obviously, the authors needed a better editor. They could have put in a sentence saying that a nearby village somehow magically appeared.

Liberty, about the snake, he sounds to me like an early personification of the modern con man. "Psst, the rich guys don't want you to know this, but just take a bite of this apple here (subscribe to my service, etc.) and you will be one of the insiders with secret knowledge." Some things never change.

I miss understood......my bad !

LOL, about the snake...I have a friend...[yeah believe it or not it's true] that will not kill a snake. Not due to their place in nature, bug/rodent eaters , and such.......But it having something to do with the religious aspect of it ???

 

[Catlady]

PVC, that question about how Cain managed to find a wife, since the only woman alive on the planet at that time was his mother, is one that humorously comes up in religious classes and discussion groups all the time. Obviously, the authors needed a better editor. They could have put in a sentence saying that a nearby village somehow magically appeared.

I once worked with Robert, a really nice young guy that I respected and admired because of his great work ethics. He was also very religious, and of course, we got into that discussion. I asked him how the original two men and one woman managed to multiply, was it incest? He didn't know, said he would ask his pastor. The answer was that it WAS incest but the taboo against incest came much later when the dangers of inbreeding were discovered. You would think that God would have foreseen that problem.

When I asked Robert that question I had not yet read that item about the nearby village. I have read the bible here and there and now and then and always put it away in cynicism. I also can't remember if only Cain or he and Abel went looking for a wife at that village. I believe that Adam lived to be 900 years and his sons were up there in years before they wanted a wife but can't remember how old they were.

 

[Gary O']

Adam lived to be 900 years and his sons were up there in years before they wanted a wife but can't remember how old they were.

Dang, that a l-o-n-g time, considering the good ol' USA is not even 300 years old...and we're up there with over 3 million folks.

Interesting dialogue

 

[Liberty]

Rgp, I agree with you on this. My last sentence that you were referring to begins with "Otherwise." In other words, I was saying that denying or doubting someone else's assertions is not the same thing as proselytizing. Carol implied that it was.

PVC, that question about how Cain managed to find a wife, since the only woman alive on the planet at that time was his mother, is one that humorously comes up in religious classes and discussion groups all the time. Obviously, the authors needed a better editor. They could have put in a sentence saying that a nearby village somehow magically appeared.

Liberty, about the snake, he sounds to me like an early personification of the modern con man. "Psst, the rich guys don't want you to know this, but just take a bite of this apple here (subscribe to my service, etc.) and you will be one of the insiders with secret knowledge." Some things never change.

you know Sunny...it has been said the snake was a actually a beautiful visual , not like what we think of as snakes, and it was only after that @#$% apple eating binge that the snake became the snake we know today, so you may very well be spot on!

 

[Lara]

Are you sure that was the plan? I remember Adam & Eve were not supposed to eat from the tree of knowledge. No choice between good & evil just a directive not to eat from one particular tree. By choosing to eat that tells me there was a flaw in a perfect creation. Why would a being supposedly capable of creating a universe and humans fail to create something with no flaws?W Maybe even more puzzling. Why continue to keeping alive the very beings he was so angry with? Seems obvious the evil was still there in the family that was left.

Not for you Knight but for the highly irritated unbelievers....Disclaimer: Must I preface my every post with "I'm answering questions and confusions about God/Bible by using God's own words in the Bible? I'm not trying to change minds/convert/proselytize. I'm not even giving my opinion. I'm giving God's opinion from His Word to questions asked. If you don't want answers direct from the source/God, then don't ask. I would post corresponding scripture but it's time consuming and not appreciated by the tough crowd usually.

Yes God directed Adam & Eve not to eat the apple...but the Snake/Satan/Evil/Sin tempted Eve to eat it. Eve therefore made a choice between Good & Evil/Sin....Satan IS the Snake. Satan is a Fallen Angel....whereas God is the Father for man and creator. He wants to be respected, obeyed, and loved as a Father. There was no flaw in creation because God wanted both Good & Evil so man had to be able to choose between Good/Love/God...and Evil/Satan/RejectingGod. Without choice man would be incapable of showing love for God or anyone. God didn't create the Universe with flaws. It was His plan. And God is not the author of confusion.

Your last question Knight..."why did He keep man alive when He was so angry with them?" Just like an earthly Father loves his children but can still be angry when they choose what they know to be wrong. Don't forget he free gift of forgiveness for those who believe in the New Testament that wasn't in place in the Old Testament. And don't forget the difference between physical death and spiritual death.

 

[Warrigal]

Isn't your last sentence just denying ? There is no hint of trying to convert/persuade..........

From Wiki..........

{ Proselytizing }
"the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another."


Yeah I know........fighting with everyone....LOL!!

Snap. I was about to post the same definition.

 

[Sunny]

The answer was that it WAS incest but the taboo against incest came much later when the dangers of inbreeding were discovered. You would think that God would have foreseen that problem.

PVC, yeah, you would think!

About whether Cain went alone to the village looking for a wife, or if Abel went with him, wasn't Abel dead by then? I think Cain killed him before that.

 

[fuzzybuddy]

Sorry , Lara, you said, "I'm not trying to change minds/convert/proselytize. I'm not even giving my opinion. I'm giving God's opinion from His Word to questions asked.". Yes, you are trying to change minds/convert/proselytize. You are giving your opinion about God and His Word. That is your interpretation, your opinion, and your belief. Your interpretation, your opinion, and your belief are yours, and not anymore valid than anyone else's. You stated, " If you don't want answers direct from the source/God, then don't ask". You are not God.

 

[Lara]

I've always had a problem with that ''tree of knowledge''. Was that knowledge about sex or knowledge in general? If God didn't want them to have sex, why make them with sexual organs? I think it had to do with sex because after eating the applle they were made to wear clothes and knew the feeling of shame. If it was general knowledge, why have a ''tree with the knowledge" available? Sounds like he was playing mind games with them.

The evil was there in the family that was left, since Cain killed Abel. Sounds like that ''first family'' instead of being perfect was quite dysfunctional. Also, they were supposed to be the first created yet when Cain was ready for a family he went to some town and found a wife. When the hell were THOSE people created, no mention of them until that trip.

God made man to procreate so yes he wanted them to have sex. But "tree of knowledge" wasn't sex knowledge. It was God's omniscient all-knowing knowledge. God didn't play "mind games" but created the mind so man could choose to be for Him or against Him.

 

[Lara]

...you are trying to change minds/convert/proselytize. You are giving your opinion about God and His Word...You are not God.

I agree that I'm not God . I am posting answers from the Bible. Have you read the Bible? If not then how do you know the answers aren't in there?

 

[Lara]

Regarding Cain likely marrying his sister or niece or great-niece but God did not forbid this until much later.
The short answer is:
The human genetic code has become increasingly “polluted” over the centuries as genetic defects are multiplied, amplified, and passed down from generation to generation. Adam and Eve did not have any genetic defects, and that enabled them and the first few generations of their descendants to have a far greater quality of health than we do now. Adam and Eve’s children had few, if any, genetic defects. As a result, it was safe for them to intermarry. And therefore not frowned on.

 

[Capt Lightning]

I would still come back to the "creation" of "man". If we thought that Adam & Eve could understand God's instruction, then they were presumably Homo Sapiens.. However accepted knowledge is that they were not uniquely created, but evolved over millions of years from early hominoids.

Oh I just give up... Let me quote some words of Sir David Attenburough ....
"If somebody says to me I believe every word of the Bible is true, you can’t argue against that degree of irrationality…"

 

[Lara]

Oh I just give up... Let me quote some words of Sir David Attenburough..."If somebody says to me I believe every word of the Bible is true, you can’t argue against that degree of irrationality…"

Every unbeliever says that. No surprise there.

 

[fuzzybuddy]

Lara, Your beliefs are yours, as my beliefs are mine. You are not God. Your interpretation of the bible is exactly what it is , your interpretation. That is what you believe. You can spout verse and theology, but it all comes down to that is what you believe. The fact that you hold those beliefs doesn't mean that I have to believe them. Nor does it mean that yours is the only interpretation of the bible. Nor does it mean others can;t have opposing theories, and interpretations. You may have read the bible, but you are not God.

 

[Lara]

Of course you don't have to believe me. God gave you a mind to make your own choices...I've said that over and over. Who do you think I am...Jim Jones shoving Kool-Aid down your throat saying follow me? Do you really believe I want to control you? I don't even know you. Are you telling me I haven't got the right to share anything I'm thinking or have read? Do you believe in free speech? Do you believe in freedom of religion? Do you believe I have any rights? To tell me I think I'm God because I've read the Bible sounds like something a kid on a playground would say. Why do you waste your time reading my posts when you don't give a rats ass what I have to say? I certainly don't care if you ignore my posts. Please do.

Sorry, I think I just lost my cool here.