Islam

TabbyAnn said:
In reading the New Testament and the Quran, the pacifist nature of Jesus and the violent nature of Muhammad become apparent. Jesus taught a self-improvement course for controlling oneself and Muhammad taught a violent political system for controlling others.

As the worldly ruler of Mecca, Muhammad wrote laws in the Quran that would be illegal in the United States today, like chopping off hands for stealing, beatings for adultery, beheadings for infidels, polygamy for men, and so on.

So in order for Muslims to practice the teachings in the Quran, without running afoul of the laws in most countries, they would have to take over the country and establish Sharia law. And we are watching that happen today. Some countries have established political Parties that are opposed to allowing any more Muslims to enter the country. In the United States however, we treat Islam as a religion, gives tax breaks to its mosques, and pretend the violent Islamists aren’t true Muslims, when in fact they are.
Click to expand...


On the other hand, perhaps the Muslims in the West have for the most part, done like many Christians and Jews and decided to ignore the violence that is inherent in the God of their books and live with the peaceful parts? Several instances in the OT where God told the Jews to go in and do a bit of ethnic cleansing, or where some sinners were to be stoned to death.......

I did a search recently for Muslims preaching peace (or something like that) and there are any number of Muslim groups speaking out against the violence of these fanatical terrorists. Perhaps it's time that our news media started focusing on those people more so that our society can see that not all are like that anymore than all Christians today aren't like Westboro Baptist.
 

I think that is what is badly needed (Muslims preaching peace). I have not seen or heard a whole lot coming from that direction, perhaps out of fear. Where was the Muslim outcry after 9/11? The silence was deafening. How many Muslims have spoken out, written letters to the editor, etc. about all the beheadings, the Boston marathon, the suicide bombers, the nut cases running around with assault weapons in the name of Islam? Why are the Muslim women not loudly protesting that religion's treatment of them?

I'm glad to hear that there are many Muslim groups speaking out. I personally have not seen or heard them.
 
Debby said:
On the other hand, perhaps the Muslims in the West have for the most part, done like many Christians and Jews and decided to ignore the violence that is inherent in the God of their books and live with the peaceful parts? Several instances in the OT where God told the Jews to go in and do a bit of ethnic cleansing, or where some sinners were to be stoned to death.......

I did a search recently for Muslims preaching peace (or something like that) and there are any number of Muslim groups speaking out against the violence of these fanatical terrorists. Perhaps it's time that our news media started focusing on those people more so that our society can see that not all are like that anymore than all Christians today aren't like Westboro Baptist.
Click to expand...

The news media certainly helps along those bad tempers in people. I think you are right Debby, more news on the good stuff.
I live near a mostly 100% Muslim community. A few bad apples were and are hiding out there, the FBI got an eye on, but for the most part they stick with there own and haven't caused trouble. That's here in the Detroit area. With as many as we have around, I'm surprise that we haven't had major issues.
 
Josiah09 said:
Debby, how about the God of the Old Testament? I'd certainly put him on a par with the most vicious pronouncements in the Quran.
Click to expand...

If we read the Bible... the Old Testament... Colorado's recent vote to allow gay marriage and legalize marijuana is Biblical. In Leviticus we are told, "If man lies with man, he shall be stoned." :)
 
TabbyAnn said:
In reading the New Testament and the Quran, the pacifist nature of Jesus and the violent nature of Muhammad become apparent. Jesus taught a self-improvement course for controlling oneself and Muhammad taught a violent political system for controlling others.

As the worldly ruler of Mecca, Muhammad wrote laws in the Quran that would be illegal in the United States today, like chopping off hands for stealing, beatings for adultery, beheadings for infidels, polygamy for men, and so on.



So in order for Muslims to practice the teachings in the Quran, without running afoul of the laws in most countries, they would have to take over the country and establish Sharia law. And we are watching that happen today. Some countries have established political Parties that are opposed to allowing any more Muslims to enter the country. In the United States however, we treat Islam as a religion, gives tax breaks to its mosques, and pretend the violent Islamists aren’t true Muslims, when in fact they are.
Click to expand...

I don't know what the Quran says, maybe it's time I read it. My thought is though, some "religions" seem like love god, but hate his creation, at least the ones that don't follow his laws, whatever that religion believes are his laws (I know, his/hers/its). Many "christians" today (and I have first hand knowledge of this) don't even read the bible, let alone mirror Christ. The word religion leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and the word god just leaves questions in my head.
 
That's why go with the new testament. I think they left that part out....LOL
I think gay people have been around since the time people began. I'm not for or against Gays, I'm glad they are finally coming out of the closet. We all strive to be all we can be with who we are in life. Gays are no different.
I do think we go too far in ruling gay rights however. And since we have separation of Church and State in America, religions have no say what these people do in their life. If you rule on something like that, you take away more freedoms from the people.
 
True FC, people have a right to live as they choose (lifestyles etc) as long as they aren't breaking a law (not laws of religion, but of the State/Country they live in).
 
Sunny said:
I think that is what is badly needed (Muslims preaching peace). I have not seen or heard a whole lot coming from that direction, perhaps out of fear. Where was the Muslim outcry after 9/11? The silence was deafening. How many Muslims have spoken out, written letters to the editor, etc. about all the beheadings, the Boston marathon, the suicide bombers, the nut cases running around with assault weapons in the name of Islam? Why are the Muslim women not loudly protesting that religion's treatment of them?

I'm glad to hear that there are many Muslim groups speaking out. I personally have not seen or heard them.
Click to expand...

Two things:

First, our western media is not talking about Muslim peace activism. Second, how many of us have actually looked to find out what they are saying? I include myself in that. But when I did a Google search: Muslims speaking against 9/11, the following is one of the links that I found:

"In the aftermath of the violence and horror of 9/11, criticisms were made that Muslim leaders and organizations were not outspoken enough in denouncing acts of terrorism. Muslims are constantly perplexed by this accusation, as we heard (and continue to hear) nothing but unequivocal and unified condemnations by the leaders of our community, both in the United States and worldwide. But for some reason, people are not listening.For the record, the inhuman attacks of September 11 were condemned in the strongest terms by virtually all Islamic leaders, organizations, and countries. TheChairman of Saudi Arabia's Supreme Judicial Council summarized that, "Islam rejects such acts, since it forbids killing of civilians even during times of war, especially if they are not part of the fighting. A religion that views people of the world in such a way cannot in any sense condone such criminal acts, which require that their perpetrators and those who support them are held accountable. As a human community we have to be vigilant and careful to preempt these evils........."
http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents/a/9_11statements.htm




And the following link gets you a list of Muslim scholars and Muslim organizations and individuals speaking out against 9/11 type terrorism. http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Why the heck isn't the media talking about all these folks? Is there a purpose to allowing it to appear that ALL Muslims are in favour of this terrorism, can't be trusted, etc....? If we started thinking of the terrorists as a small group of lunatic fanatics out of a large group who's religion has been hijacked, would it be harder to kill whole populations? To justify the murders of innocent families who happen to practise 'that' religion? Bottom line, media should be talk to any and all Muslim groups who espouse peace and every time an incident happens.

(obviously, the Saudi statement above is problematic considering that countries human rights abuses, but the point is that there are many Muslim groups talking and teaching about the situation and we're just being kept in the dark)
 
Last edited:
Josiah09 said:
Debby, how about the God of the Old Testament? I'd certainly put him on a par with the most vicious pronouncements in the Quran.
Click to expand...


What you've just mentioned is one of the reasons why my husband and I finally left the church. We were unable to ignore the obvious contradiction of the OT God and the NT God, and chose to leave.
 
nwlady said:
I don't know what the Quran says, maybe it's time I read it. My thought is though, some "religions" seem like love god, but hate his creation, at least the ones that don't follow his laws, whatever that religion believes are his laws (I know, his/hers/its). Many "christians" today (and I have first hand knowledge of this) don't even read the bible, let alone mirror Christ. The word religion leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and the word god just leaves questions in my head.
Click to expand...

Denise, You'd be surprised at what the Quran says. It's not laid out in any chronically order, it's just a bunch of statements and not even in a story line version.
In fact I was told it's not to be read but recited. If that makes any sense. Say it over and over until you're brainwashed with it's words.
Here ya go, an English version. Use the arrows given to go page by page. I was also told to read it in English is wrong due to miss translation. But since we read English,, we somehow need to understand why this religion is right?
http://clearquran.com/index.html

And a brief history of Islam video
[video]http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=History+Of+Islam&FORM=R5FD5#view=detail&m id=D08A8C86F1546A4A5680D08A8C86F1546A4A5680[/video]
 
Wow, can't thank you enough FC, I just haven't been curious enough to read any of it, but now with the link I can definitely take a look.

Somehow the reciting thing doesn't surprise me, kind of like chanting or something. In christianity they preach memorizing, and in some "groups" they do the tongue thing which sounds like garble, but they say it's a personal language only god can understand. But yet there has to be at least one other person to decipher/interpret it. This isn't in the bible though, not as far as I've read. Maybe I missed it.

I may be off track, but if the OP brings up Quran, seems appropriate to mention more on it, as well as other religions having similarities. I was attending a church, and offered to help with the little ones in nursery. I was looking for books to read them and came across one that "taught" speaking in tongues. That was the beginning of the end of my attendance there.
 
Christ's best gift was individualism. He showed that God was in every living thing. There was no need to have rulers that were direct descendents from the Gods. This allowed people to turn into themselves and construct there own internal temples. One can only imagine how many apple carts that overturned.

Mohamad like Christ was a very rich man who else would have time for something like this. As he walked down the streets 500 years later about the time the New Testament was being put together, all he could see were whores on the corners, money changers, and extreme poverty sound familiar? So he met with Gabriel and decided to build a book of conduct for his people, because - well they really needed it. Ironically his works, the Old Testament , and Psalms all came from the Egyptian book of the dead, but that's another story. Being a pragmatist he decided to use the KISS principle (keep it simply stupid ) and include the basics. He liked the internal temple stuff, but knew that mamma was to busy trying to stop the neighbor kid from stealing her babies food, and his old man was trying to get in her pants all the time. Solution: cut off the kids hand and put a cover over mamas mouth and make her look ugly. (Sort of what the feminists did in the 60s).

Fast forward to to when both sides have taken these prophets literally and what do you get--- people who still can't define assault rifle.
 
Just what I've read so far made me think about interpretation. Each person can interpret something differently if they read for themselves. I wonder with Muslims, if they "all" read it for themselves. I know the bible is constantly misinterpreted. Well, I should clarify, it is misinterpreted in "my opinion". I sat in church for years and listened to what others said the bible said, before I finally started reading it for myself. Boy did that change a lot of things for me, for the good I might add.
 
YW Denise, I was hoping that would help, I know it did for me.
All religions have their idols. Catholics, IMO, are the worst for idolizing. The quran forbids idols, that is why they have no symbol and no face to symbolize the prophet Mohammad.
 
rt3 said:
Christ's best gift was individualism. He showed that God was in every living thing. There was no need to have rulers that were direct descendents from the Gods. This allowed people to turn into themselves and construct there own internal temples. One can only imagine how many apple carts that overturned.

Mohamad like Christ was a very rich man who else would have time for something like this. As he walked down the streets 500 years later about the time the New Testament was being put together, all he could see were whores on the corners, money changers, and extreme poverty sound familiar? So he met with Gabriel and decided to build a book of conduct for his people, because - well they really needed it. Ironically his works, the Old Testament , and Psalms all came from the Egyptian book of the dead, but that's another story. Being a pragmatist he decided to use the KISS principle (keep it simply stupid ) and include the basics. He liked the internal temple stuff, but knew that mamma was to busy trying to stop the neighbor kid from stealing her babies food, and his old man was trying to get in her pants all the time. Solution: cut off the kids hand and put a cover over mamas mouth and make her look ugly. (Sort of what the feminists did in the 60s).

Fast forward to to when both sides have taken these prophets literally and what do you get--- people who still can't define assault rifle.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you know something about Mohammed, and the Quran. I have only read like the first page. Can you tell me (give me a "sneak peek") whether the god of the Quran is finite, or infinite?
 
Grumpy Ol' Man said:
If we read the Bible... the Old Testament... Colorado's recent vote to allow gay marriage and legalize marijuana is Biblical. In Leviticus we are told, "If man lies with man, he shall be stoned." :)
Click to expand...

True, the Bible, especially Leviticus in the Old Testament is of the same cruel, primitive mindset as the Koran. Probably going back to Biblical days, the Jews were just as guilty of this stuff as the Islamist fanatics. And in Christianity, we don't even have to go back that far; there was the Spanish Inquisition, fundamentalist puritanism, etc.

But the big difference is: that was then, this is now. These Islamists cannot be let off the hook by pointing out the cruelties and ignorance of other religions in bygone ages. Even the most rigidly orthodox Jews and Christians are not bombing innocent people, flying planes into buildings, subjecting people to strokes of the lash(!) for expressing their own opinions, etc.

So this is apples and oranges. We cannot shrug off the Muslim atrocities by pointing out that at some time in the past, other religions were "just as bad." The Muslim religion seems to be permanently stuck in about the 12th century.
 
Allah is infinite just as the Christian God, both are mind before matter beliefs. (Science is matter before mind belief) In both religions the earth, we and the sun were one before the separation, Christians call it the creation. Both got it from the Egyptians. Early humans lived day to day with the Gods. No one lied because the gods were listening. The Trogan horse was the storey of the first "trick". The battle for Troy was fought over the Pallidium not Helen. As our selves became more aware we became more to be like matter and was cut of from communication from the gods. This contact is still evident in the stone worn by Indian's, the third chakra, and practiced by various mysteries, the Rosicrucian, the Sufis and Freemasons to name a few.

the Koran is written and taught in the Bard tradition which goes back to thr Druids, Celts, and Norse traditions and is intended for use in illiterate peoples. Sitting around the campfire and telling heritages goes way back. And you always wondered why movies were so popular. Both forms of communication appeal at the subconscious level of Jung's seven archetypes.

Thoughts become words
words become actions
actions become behavior.

six million people were killed in the Inquistion and crusades, who knows by the conquistadors. Looks like they have some catching up

two great dates occurred in Christianity ---/ were when Atilla the Hun died on his wedding night with a nose bleed, and Charlemagne defeated the movement of Islam across Europe and you thought it had something to do with the Christians. Either one of these events could have wiped out Christianity
 
nwlady said:
Definitely agree, plus the fact He did claim to be God, and the God of the OT was no pacifist.
Click to expand...

I think Jesus referred to himself as "son of man" which referred to an OT prophesy about the messiah. Correct me anyone who has the time to clarify this point. It was others who used the words "son of God" (Peter, Roman soldier at the cross)and this may have been written into the stories later. I think Paul is probably the writer who most points to divinity.

The god of the OT is a tribal interpretation/understanding of the divine. Jesus preached, through the parables, a very different interpretation, one that could be universal and encompass non Jews. No-one before him had ever dared to address God as Daddy as he did in what we call the Lord's Prayer. (Abba is a very familiar Hebrew word for father).
 
nwlady said:
I may be off track, but if the OP brings up Quran, seems appropriate to mention more on it, as well as other religions having similarities. I was attending a church, and offered to help with the little ones in nursery. I was looking for books to read them and came across one that "taught" speaking in tongues. That was the beginning of the end of my attendance there.
Click to expand...

I'd be out of there too. I'd bin the book before I left.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
I think Jesus referred to himself as "son of man" which referred to an OP prophesy about the messiah. Correct me anyone who has the time to clarify this point. It was others who used the words "son of God" (Peter, Roman soldier at the cross)and this may have been written into the stories later. I think Paul is probably the writer who most points to divinity.

The god of the OT is a tribal interpretation/understanding of the divine. Jesus preached, through the parables, a very different interpretation, one that could be universal and encompass non Jews. No-one before him had ever dared to address God as Daddy as he did in what we call the Lord's Prayer. (Abba is a very familiar Hebrew word for father).
Click to expand...

I don't believe Jesus ever claimed to be GOD... or the Son of God.. And never spoke of the Trinity. That was all done by man inventing a religion.
 
QuickSilver said:
I don't believe Jesus ever claimed to be GOD... or the Son of God.. And never spoke of the Trinity. That was all done by man inventing a religion.
Click to expand...
My understanding too. In our congregation we have people who still believe in Christ's divinity but many do not or are at best ambivalent about it, including our minister. It makes no difference to their commitment to try to live out the teachings embedded in the gospel narratives.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top