Cenegenics: Scam or Legitimate?

the osteoporosis is covered in another topic in the health section- please review -- doubt if it will be repeated here.

the marketing for a cure is a very good topic for debate. currently the insurance companies will not cover hormones because they do not consider aging (as defined by a decrease in hormones) as a disease, disregarding the fact that low levels or lack are the root of the problem of other diseases. Will entropy may be an accepted condition in physics it doesn't necessarily have to be that way in biological systems. If hormone therapy were considered a natural supplement, a good deal of disease states could be avoided that would reduce the overall cost of medicine for everyone.
 

rt3 said:
the osteoporosis is covered in another topic in the health section- please review -- doubt if it will be repeated here.
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I am not asking about the "topic" of osteoporosis. I am asking you a specific question.

Do YOU consider osteoporosis part of normal aging that should be accepted, or do you think it should be treated.

Newly Old
 
I don't consider aging a natural process, let alone bone deterioration. They are both diseases, and they should both be treated. The term cure isn't really relative in this context. If the progression of the deterioration either (and any other disease) can be slowed, changed etc. to enhance the quality of life it is a positive.
 

rt3 said:
I don't consider aging a natural process, let alone bone deterioration. They are both diseases, and they should both be treated. The term cure isn't really relative in this context. If the progression of the deterioration either (and any other disease) can be slowed, changed etc. to enhance the quality of life it is a positive.
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Current medical evidence shows that decreased testosterone is a major cause of osteoporosis in older men. When T is found to be low, treatment with T is now considered part of the treatment for osteoporosis.

I have some osteoporosis which has been helped by my testosterone therapy. That is the point of Cenegenic's use of testosterone in men with low T. Cenegenics is not because we fear dying or we do not accept the natural course of aging. Aging often includes low testosterone as well which is responsible for many things which people are calling the normal aging process. Well, the aging process includes body deterioration such as osteoporosis. Low testosterone is a cause of a lot of it and treatment with testosterone helps restore a lot of that loss, including bone density. Testosterone for those with low T corrects a lot of the deterioration. That is why so many of us say that we feel 20 years younger. A lot of the deterioration of aging is corrected.

Osteoporosis is one of the many parts of the aging process that is caused, in part, by low testosterone. If people believe that osteoporosis should be treated, then so should other parts of the body that have suffered deterioration with low testosterone.

That is the point of Cenegenics. To say we do it because we don't accept aging or we fear dying is blatantly incorrect. Much of aging is body deterioration, such as osteoporosis which can be helped by correcting low T. Cenegenics is to correct and preserve function and the active life. It is not to prolong life. It is not to make us look better. It is to make us feel better. I want to die healthy, not debilitated. As you said, if the progression of the deterioration can be slowed or changed to enhance the quality of life, it is positive.

I hope others reading this understand testosterone optimization better because it works. Cenegenics does a lot of things for money that I do not like. But it has provided a system where doctors can practice high quality age management- for the few who can afford it.

It is not necessary to do the Cenegenics program to have the benefits of T optimization. If you can find a reputable MD who can do it cheaper, that works.

Newly Old
 
I have covered the use of test (as well as K2) in this forum under sever different posts for the last 3 months for use in bone stuff, but welcome aboard.
 
don't need a lab test to know test is low. anyone over 30 is low, and even some younger
applies to both men and women (Test works better in women for dry woo-hoo than e2 in regards to the other benefits you mention)
doesn't need to be an MD
 
Cene. has changed marketing strategy over the 5 years I have been aware of them. Initially, and up thru 2012-earyl 2013 most of their scripts went out to help man boobs. the test. went out with HCG, thyroid, anastrozole or DIM, and most important, a change in diet/exercise.
the acceptance of test. in bone stuff is only about the last 2 years, and about the last year for women.
 
You are correct that you don't need a lab test to know T is low. The problem is you need an MD to prescribe and monitor treatment.

Now where can I go to get me a set of those man-boobs? (I know, just look in the mirror.)

Newly Old
 
talking costs for a moment
anyone with a DEA number can prescribe test. Nurse pract, RN,s in those practices set up for it, they do the monitoring also less expensive

compared to HGH at about $700 a month for the low dose, test. is pretty cheap. unless your a movie star out of range for most users. Lets look into those proteins which cause or facilitate the production of HGH in the body. Something like Semoralin (sp) or something we can do exclusive, not having outside CNUS borders.

injectable test. comes from generic manufactures, like Watson, pretty cheap, then the prescriber adjusts the dose, writes the script off to the pharmacy. pharmacy then repacks it etc.

but what if we want to give the impression that we have a unique product, exclusive lets say to, to the rest of our marketing line, which may include services also. The pharmacy can't make the test. from powder because they need expensive facilities. Making it from powder would give a considerable margin, which could be rebated in some fashion back to the prescribers. kickbacks are illegal, so some other means would be needed. Perhaps the overall contract price-- anyway. The next problem is the strength cannot be the same as any commercial product, small task, simply change the strength up or down, so no commercial product is duplicated. Now for the rest of the picture. Since creams can be made by any compounding pharmacy, and the user would probably run down the street to get it at a much lower price, we have to give the impression the injectable form is the best, requiring monitoring, and add a list of exclusives etc.

within the usable dosage range, of test. , the creams work fine, especially the liposomal types and a 3 month supply can be had for about $70. The use of trits. or troches works great, by passing liver, just a little more.
 
rt3 said:
talking costs for a moment
anyone with a DEA number can prescribe test. Nurse pract, RN,s in those practices set up for it, they do the monitoring also less expensive.
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In summary, you are incorrect.

It is not the cost, or the ease of administration of testosterone that is the issue. A DEA license does not permit a doctor to prescribe unless strict medical and legal procedures are followed.

Yes, a DEA license CAN prescribe testosterone. They can also prescribe oxycontin, Vicodin and growth hormone. And they CAN lose their license, face professional misconduct charges, hefty fines and jail time. I personally know of one doctor in the area who was nailed for prescribing testosterone without an adequate history and physical exam.

There are also pain management doctors where you can get oxycontin, Vicodin and Percocet on demand.

You can also buy testosterone illegally without a prescription. But finding a doctor to write a prescription does not mean you have an ethical, knowledgable or law abiding doctor. And, as a physician, I will continue to say that testosterone is not safe it not prescribed by someone with expertise in the area who diagnoses, treats, and monitors correctly.

I am talking about ethical doctors with expertise in the area of age management. If an internist (or other MD) accepts insurance, they cannot practice age management legally. Testosterone treatment for age management is not covered by insurance. They are prohibited from providing a non covered service and having the patient pay directly.

The doctors who do not take insurance are the concierge MD's who charge premium prices, or doctors who are unable to join insurance plans ( usually because if prior medical misconduct, license suspensions, etc)

As for NP's, in most states they can prescribe testosterone, but not all. I know of no NP's in New York area that are in independent practice and practice age management. And again, if they accept insurance, they cannot do age management.

(RN's cannot prescribe controlled substances.)

BTW, I am an MD and I have an unrestricted DEA license. I prescribe testosterone to certain patients with an endocrine abnormality that causes testicular failure. I cannot and do not prescribe for age management.

If it was so easy to find reputable well trained MD's or RN's who practice age management, I would not need to pay for Cenegenics.

I am an MD in practice for over 25 years, on staff at the major medical centers, and know the majority of the available specialists in the region. I have personal contact with numerous other doctors I have asked about age management doctors they might know. I am not able to find any other than concierge MD's, Cenegenics or the like, or "fringe" complementary doctors who can be more expensive than concierge MD's. I know of no NP's who are reputable and practice age management.

If you know of people in the New York region, tell me who they are. I will gladly use them.

In New York, every testosterone prescription must be reported to the NYS Prescription Monitoring Program. The patients and doctors are both tracked. If I am going to prescribe a controlled substance, I must first register and log onto the website and review that patient's prescription history. This review is given an ID number and I must do this for every controlled substance prescription I write.

To say it is simple and inexpensive to get testosterone treatment and management is just not true in the real world.

Newly Old
 
wow, say its wrong first then don't give examples, great post. In fact you are wrong and I will itemize.

Seeing several hundred scripts a day for hormones from all over the US, gives me much more insight into what is legal than your limited knowledge of the process. Why you have brought up narcotics is beyond, me, but you forget that a large part of the pharmacists job is to verify the legality of the script.

RNs can write if they have a DEA.
cost, and dosage form are very much the issue, and in some cases the only issue, in all cases it is assumed that diet and exercise are good, hormone replacement therapy is not a cure for a specific disease state.
you have only included test, and not the other 19 or so other hormones in Hormone Replacement Therapy. --(its the only one your familiar with, your still selling Cene.) If Cene. is choosing to market as age management only, they are only limiting themselves.

the dosages test. used in old people and even young are totally different than body building, and a great deal of confusion exists on this site about the difference.

I can give you a list of 100 NP that are reputable and in some cases know more about it than most MDs across the US.

In New York contact Physioage, they are less expensive than Cene, but just as exclusive.

It is simple and inexpensive to get test. (If you are living in New York, you have no idea what the real world is.)

Docs don't join Cene because it costs to much, plain a simple (and insurance doesn't cover), Hormone replacement therapy is much broader than just Age management,

non use of test. in women for hair loss, and bone density in women and men is a waste, shame, and what are you afraid of?

all states require a month end computer download of schedules drugs, which is cross referenced for abuse an shoppers.

New York is one of the few states dumb enough to put HCG and HGH on schedule.
 
Should add that my DEA license is unrestricted also (what the hell that means to hormone replacement therapy is beyond me)
 
rt3 said:
Should add that my DEA license is unrestricted also (what the hell that means to hormone replacement therapy is beyond me)
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What it means is this:

In New York State, testosterone is a Schedule II controlled substance. The prescriber must look up the patient in the NYS Prescription Monitoring Program and the testosterone prescription must be reported to the PMP where it is added to that patient's (and doctor's) database.

You said that anyone with an unrestricted DEA license can prescribe testosterone as though it is as simple as "anyone" writing the script. It is TIGHTLY regulated and must be prescribed under appropriate circumstances.

In New York State, RN's cannot write prescriptions

Newly Old
 
rt3 said:
wow, say its wrong first then don't give examples, great post. In fact you are wrong and I will itemize.

>>> but you forget that a large part of the pharmacists job is to verify the legality of the script.<<<

How does the pharmacist verify that the patient had an adequate history, examination and testing before the prescription was written?

The issue has not been illegally written prescriptions, it is the issue of doctors writing prescriptions for testosterone or other schedule II drugs without doing the appropriate evaluation. They are charged and prosecuted for professional misconduct.

Newly Old
Click to expand...
 
>>>Seeing several hundred scripts a day for hormones from all over the US, gives me much more insight into what is legal than your limited knowledge of the process.<<<

I was very clear that I was talking about New York State. I am VERY familiar with the process in New York State.

You talk as if you are totally unaware of the New York State PMP Registry. Do you have a New York State Health Commerce account? If not, you cannot even access the PMP Registry.

Newly Old
 
thats why you put test in with the other schedule IIs New York accounts for a really small part of the hormone replacement market, (back to that and not test)

It is clear that your knowledge of hormone replacement therapy is extremely limited, on the prescribing side, the effect side, and the manufacturer side.

The readers are not really interested in what goes on in New York, unlike Las Vegas what goes on there doesn't stay there, it gets pushed off on the rest of the states.

The readers are interested in Cenegenics, and I suspect would like more information on Hormone Replacement, as there seems to be a lot of confusion on normal people using them as opposed to athletes.
 
>>>In New York contact Physioage, they are less expensive than Cene, but just as exclusive.<<<

Thanks for the tip. I spoke with them and to join would only cost me about $4500, instead of $5000 for Cenegenics.

Newly Old
 
>>>The readers are interested in Cenegenics, and I suspect would like more information on Hormone Replacement, as there seems to be a lot of confusion on normal people using them as opposed to athletes.[/QUOTE]<<<

That is why my posting started as MY personal experience as an ongoing Cenegenics patient. If you read my posts from September, you will see that my sole desire was to give a first hand account from someone who is actually in the program.

For people interested in Cenegenics, perhaps some are interested in what it is REALLY like, what the diet FEELS LIKE reported first hand, what receiving testosterone FEELS LIKE first hand, what it FEELS LIKE first hand when the body changes or when blood parameters become off due to treatment.

I have given very accurate and detailed accounts from my personal experience.

I might be way off base on this, but I suspect that if "The readers are interested in Cenegenics," my first person account might interest them.

Newly Old
 
>>>It is clear that your knowledge of hormone replacement therapy is extremely limited, on the prescribing side, the effect side, and the manufacturer side. <<<

Now there you go, again!

I have said that my knowledge of hormone replacement therapy is limited to what I am experiencing as a patient. Everyone can ignore the rest of this post because it is a reply to your claim that I have extremely limited knowledge of hormone replacement on the prescribing side and the effect side. That is a broad statement, not specific to age management.

I care for patients from birth through 21. I am board certified. I have over 30 years experience. I trained under some of the top world renowned endocrinologists. I participated in a lot of the research on the hormonal control of puberty that has been the source of information for textbooks. You may have read some of them, or some of the research articles. I have treated countless patients for testosterone, growth hormone, ADH, hypothalamic, pituitary, adrenal, ovarian and testicular disorders. My experience is extensive. I have treated conditions that you have never heard of. I have had successful outcomes in patients with endoctinopathies that have not been previously reported because until my patient, patients with the condition were thought to be incurable.

I continue to work in consultation with top university pediatric endocrinologists and currently have several patients I am treating with testosterone for Klinefelters and transgender.

You READ about testosterone. You look at PRESCRIPTIONS. I diagnose real live people. I treat real live people.

You say I have limited knowledge of the effects of testosterone? I follow the patients from diagnosis until adulthood and manage their testosterone treatments. They tell me first hand what effects they are having, and what problems. YOU have learned effects from what you READ. I learn from the REAL people having the effects, and many are things that are NOT in the textbooks or journals you read. I learn about things the pediatric endocrinologist have not known, because I have a close and ongoing doctor patient relationship. Teenagers will discuss matters of sexuality, sexual functioning and dysfunction, moods and other very private and sensitive issues with a trusted physician which they will never reveal to anyone else.

I do not know age management. But to speculate on my overall knowledge...correction... to blatantly assert that I have very limited knowledge proves that you consider some of you wild and incorrect assertions as fact.

I have no need to defend my expertise. I just think it is important for those reading your posts to realize how your blustery bravado and claims to knowledge is camouflaging your lack of real knowledge and experience.

I am done with you. I too busy taking care of real patients with real illnesses who I provide with excellent state-of-the-art care to waste time correcting each bit of misinformation you throw out there, no matter how seriously or dangerously wrong it is.

I joined Seniors Forum 8 months ago to share my first person experience with Cenegenics for those who wanted to know what it is REALLY like. I think I have given and accurate account, so I will no longer be on the forum, reading or posting.

Enjoy your life on Seniors Forum, rt3. And to those who wanted honest information about Cenegenics, I hope you found it useful.

Newly Old, signing off.
 
Thank you for this. I had an appointment with Longevity and vitality and spoke with the doctor. The price was mentioned which I was willing to pay because I need to get my thyroid, addrenals, and hormones in sync. On further research I found and what put me off is that you have to continue with the program to receive your meds or supplements. If you decide to stop going to them you're back where you started.

I would like the extensive comprehensive testing and I do want to make changes now because it is now or never but I want to know what the supplements, meds are and I want to be able to purchase these on my own if I choose. The lock in to their meds and continued profits does not sit well with me.
 

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