Cenegenics: Scam or Legitimate?

rt3 said:
good the post works- now for a few facts. this may have been already posted, but I'm not going to review, too old/no time

The participation by MD's in the Cenegenics franchise allows the MD to use Cenes call in center, to order the rx and "packages" without the MD needing a staff for this purpose. MD's pay into the franchise get to use their resources, win/win for both sides--on the business side.

lab results really don't tell you anything about the level of hormones you need. a normal range is meaningless. its a statistical average used by the lab company.
as an example the TSH range has recently been suggested to be reduced to around 3 as the 5 level rejected to many people in race/ethnic groups known to be lower.

test. is converted to estrogen E2 in men, estrogen has significant cardio protective properties
recent heart attacks/problems in the news from test. given to men are more than likely due to surges in estrogen breaking away the plaques. but the FDA decision to investigate will no doubt stir the pot.

everyone over 30 has low thyroid- t4 is not the same as t3 t4 is inactive

the start of the entire sequence is in the electron transport system, and adrenal stress.
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I would like to add a few comments. Since you are new to this (and a welcome addition), let my briefly review my stance. I posted a thread for whomever was interested in what I would be experiencing upon joining Cenegenics. I am a physician, so I do have some knowledge in the area, but it is not my area of expertise.

You are correct about the relationship of Cenegenics and their physicians. MD's do not just pay in to use their services. The MD's are required to take courses at Cenegenics conferences, which they must do on an ongoing basis to keep their expertise up to date. They pay thousands to attend. (Non-Cenegenics doctors can also attend the courses, but I assume at a higher tuition.)

I think saying, "lab results don't tell you anything about the level of hormones you need" is too extreme. Lab tests don't tell you EVERYTHING about the level of hormones you need. In medicine, there is a saying that goes, "Treat the patient, not the lab test." But the lab test is a critical part of the evaluation and monitoring. The key is that the results need to be INTERPRETED by the doctor and then put in context. Doctors look at the entire picture which includes physical examination, lab tests, other diagnostic tests, diet, sleep, stress, exercise and other things that may be brought out by the initial evaluation.

Another important use of labs is to make sure that there isn't another cause of symptoms. You can have the same symptoms and find severe anemia on the blood count. If that is found, then an evaluation must be made to find out why. It may be due to a malignancy. It may be due to intestinal blood loss. I can name at least a dozen serious conditions which mimic low T which can be screened for with the initial lab panel done by Cenegenics.

Finally, lab tests are a critical part of monitoring treatment. T replacement call elevate estrogens to a problem level. PSA can indicate that the T is stimulating an undiagnosed prostate cancer. T can elevate hematocrit to dangerous levels, so some (like me) need to donate blood periodically to keep the levels safe.

As far as the heart disease risk, the study showed increased risk in patients with known heart disease. Studies of patients without pre-existing heart disease showed T to be protective.

I am a physician and I know that I do not have the expertise to treat and monitor hormone optimization. Neither does my internist. But I trust the education and expertise of my Cenegenics physician.

And what do you mean T4 is inactive??? Are you referring to "total T4" of are you saying that "free T4" is inactive?

Newly Old
 

lab test only tell you if your patient is getting some of the drug. there isn't a correlation between drug effect and dose (dose related) with hormones such as other drugs, treating the patient is surely the answer, but often neglected today. T4 must be converted to T3 and each site does it at a different rate, to complicated matters more the conversion is second order mass action expression and nothing to do with first order exponential elimination, (biological half-life) and to complicated the matter even more, the incidence of auto immune disorders of the gluten type are far more than reported. test. stimulation of prostrate cancer is unproven. psa recently has been dropped as a should have test and increases simply by rubbing the prostrate.
only reason t4 is even used, because of old school thought t3 doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. however spinal fluid shows t3 levels rise with just t3 dosing
back to Cenegenics- they have a different approach than "traditional hormone therapy" usually including if not starting with HCG, an aromatase inhibitor, thyroid and test. inj. whereas most docs start with a test crème. cene can also introduce HGH at the time they select, and some of them are exploring Semorlen
not saying this good or bad, just they are not bogged down with the dogma of traditional endo.
 
would also add cene is ahead of most hormones doc. in using natural aromatase inhibitors, recognizing the problem of mitochondrial electron transport (using CoQ10) and although they don't say one way or another the possible advantages of its use to of set statins (which is a possible cause of some of the hearing loss associated with). via electron transport.
 

would also add, Cene is slower than a lot of other docs. when using and considering test crèmes in females------- and we haven't even got into how the formulations will give you different lab values.
 
There is a large range from a test having no value to a test being used to guide treatment. A test is one of the tools physicians should use, and the limitations of the tests need to be taken into account. PSA's not being used as screening tests for prostate cancer is irrelevant. Serial measurements in a given patient do have value in monitoring their condition. Limitations of TFT's is also irrelevant. There are limitations to all tests. There are false positives and false negatives. But that does not mean they are useless.

My experience as a Cenegenics patient differs from what you describe. My treatment plan is individualized to my needs. But I must strongly disagree with you about testosterone gel. There are some real drawbacks to it. It is an easier "sell" to patients, but in my opinion injections are a far better way to give testosterone.

Newly old.
 
"So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do."

Vomit.jpg
 
PSA to do screening for the effects of testosterone are irrelevant, you have it turned around. Heh, I'm glad your happy with Cene, but beside the points of my posts. Cene uses a formulary, for which the "specialized" treatment for you is selected, "lets see you need 1 of a 3 of b" please don't tell me, I did their compounding. Injections of test.

The individualization occurs only with the concentration. This is an example of "start low go slow" dosing. Hormones have no toxic upper limits or therapeutic dosage range such as published in medical literature. Indeed most are used off label.

It is possible to "slam em and see what falls out", but of course this would violate legal protocols. Inj. are better for the MD because they give the most reliable reads of lab values, not for the pt. The only real (methylcellulose colloidal) gels are used by the big pharm. Compounding uses a formulation of the drug in a water soluable base with a lot of alcohol which allows them to label it as a gel under FDA guidelines.

Usually the best form of any drug is triturates, or RTD (rapid dissolving tablets) which are sublingual. In tests case there is so much storage in the salivary glands, the release does not occur resembling any log curve. Transdermal liposome creams have the best transport and (when applied correctly) blood levels, this has been proven by the PCAB,PCCA etc. and are the form of choice (perhaps not yours).

Both avoid liver degradation. Hormones are not drugs, in a pharmacology sense, they are only because the FDA has labeled them as therefore. Hormones can move both ways in the metabolic process, changing back into their own precursors, can actually alter DNA, and effect every cell in the body. No other FDA defined drug has this property.

A lot of the MDs, across the US, that have been doing hormones for a while rarely use tests, and have taught their patients which signs to look for, such that the patient does their own dosing. Very few MD know the limitations of any of the tests they use, most rely on the suggestions of the Clinical Path. associated with the testing lab their using.

Most tests would require the use of Mass Spec. and equipment out of the financial range of the local lab. Given this and that most insurance companies deny claims for hormone test puts hormone therapy out of range for most andropause males. Even this may be restricted by the FDA more with their upcoming studies. Remember test. is Class 3 drug, and the gov.. considers its use by you no different than if you were taking Lortab all the time.
 
some discussion of "program individualized for each person" needs to be. If the individualism program is calibrating (titrating) the dose of a specific hormone or hormones to that person based on concentration changes of the initial hormone -- good luck.

what you are saying is that you are using a quantitative measuring metric to adjust a non-definable end point. In the example of test,e2,and p4 this would require the removal of any source of precursor in the metabolic pathway. no more soy products for you guy (at the least). In the case of thyroid this would eliminate, gluten based products and monitoring both t3 and rt3 if the patient is receiving the t4 dogma regimen.

so what would individualization involve? Depends on the person. given just 2 people they probably won't even read the directions on the label the same. If you have gout problems, individualism could include, allopurinol, removal of glutens from diet. Just starting hormones could precipitate an attack. If your goals are I'll do everything necessary to loose weight and get healthy as long as I can eat in a good restaurant every night-- etc.

The first step is recognizing the inflammation process is part of hormone therapy. Stress, cortisol, are signs that the hormones are out of whack, not an arthritis problem. Getting the oxygen to one of the largest muscles in the body is on top of the lists.

Rebalance the aldosterone and kidney function (adrenal stress). I've seen some Cene docs do this as well as Physioage, and MedQuest docs do this. I have seen a lot that don't. Out of all the MD out there start with this and conclude their patience didn't need it I doubt it.
Carl Jung once said "Woman have irrational opinions". "Men have irrational moods". His wife said. "Hormones for Bitches"
 
I admit I am only a thick retail pharmacist from a different country; but this is all totally beyond me....perhaps because I am a blonde woman?
 
Correct testosterone testing is easy for all doctors to obtain. When we order testosterone tests, it is simple to have the lab send it to a reference lab for analysis liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry. That is the correct way to have it done. That is what is recommended in the Endocrine Society's recent guidelines for the diagnosis and treatment of low testosterone. I would hope that all people reading these threads would use a competent, well trained up to date physician. This is the standard of care.

<<<Very few MD know the limitations of any of the tests they use, most rely on the suggestions of the Clinical Path. associated with the testing lab their using.>>>

Let me pretend that you have statistics to show that. Better yet, let me accept that as a true fact. The point is that few MD's have expertise in hormone replacement. The ones who do have the knowledge are the ones who DO know the limitations of the test. They KNOW the current literature and recommendations. They DO use reference labs. They DO know how to interpret tests and they DO know how to diagnose and treat.

Allowing people to determine their own dose and intervals of T without testing may be common, but that does not mean it is correct. The usual method is for people to note when their libido drops off along with energy level. Testosterone therapy can increase a person's hematocrit to harmful levels (polycythemia). How do they tell that for themselves. without lab tests? Do they have to wait to have a stroke or a heart attack from the polycythemia? How about the alteration in estrogens? Do they wait for breast enlargement (gynecomastia).

Testosterone gel is easily transferred by contact to others, which can be a real problem to someone hugging their child, their spouse, etc. That is the real world. I have seen patients who found it awkward and uncomfortable to use, and also where it did not provide the therapeutic effect as they had experienced with the injections. I know of numerous cases where people went back to shots because they did not like using the gel. That is the real world of real patients. The gel sounds better than shots to most people, but in the real world, patients who have used both are the ones who say which is better for them.

Just to summarize: If someone is considering hormone optimization, there are doctors who have the expertise to do it properly. It requires a correct diagnosis. It requires a physical examination, a variety of blood tests and other tests. Treatment, if needed, needs to be done and monitored by the MD which includes certain blood tests. It is a given that a doctor with the expertise will have the ability to choose the tests, choose the lab and method, and interpret the results IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ENTIRE CLINICAL PICTURE.

Newly Old
 
there isn't a correct or incorrect way, there is a safer way for MD (usually involves legal ramifications), the only thing your describing is your medical practice, which is good not knocking that, just saying what I've seen after filling 1500 scripts from Cene, 500 from Physioage, and 400 from Medquest per day, and talking with about 30 docs from all over the country about lab tests, and seeing reviewing more of them on hormones in 1 week than most MD do in a year --- but that's another thing. The most knowledgeable people on using test are the weight lifters, but that doesn't mean either you or I want to follow there path. Cene uses anastrozole to block the estrogen pathway, Rossier in Palm Springs, the author of many endo books etc. deplores the use,
Most contact test is from vapor deposition of the spouse during the night time and incorrect use at bedtime, applied correctly to the inner thigh after a shower there is no problem with children. Which way a patient wants to apply it has nothing to do with the optimization of the product. Would change your last paragraph to read most prescribers of etc. as most scripts done today are done by PA's and NPs. Saying that it should be done in the entire clinical picture, is to walk away from the question, what is the entire clinical picture, its different for each medical person. If the pt. and doc can work something out great--- doing nothing is the worst picture.
to most people the only thing certain is death and taxes
to lawyers -- death, taxes and rear end collisions
to hormone practitioners-- you will age
 
appreciate the status quo stance, but it reminds me of people saying Ford didn't have a college education, and the reply, boy think of what he would of done if he had.
no need to do things by ourselves

you need some ambition drug ---- some t3 I know an MD at this very web site who can help you.

many good practitioners on the web for hormones , do a web search in your area, many good results without going the concierge route,
 
rt3 said:
you need some ambition drug ---- some t3 I know an MD at this very web site who can help you.
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In other words, you're our friendly neighborhood pusher.

Please. :rolleyes:

Ambition is responsible for most of this world's ills, and you want to sell us more? You're in the wrong neighborhood - go sell it to the teen weightlifters who, by your own admission, are so knowledgeable about it.
 
Is anyone else a little saddened that all this copied and pasted pretend patter is aimed at men who define their worth as human beings only by their degree of sexual function that is attained or lost by every other placental mammal on the planet without them even thinking about it?

Are men really selling themselves so 'short'??
A good man with a solid character and intelligence is one to be treasured regardless of his stallion status. Every male idiot has a dick. Just sayin'.

Like women who dress to impress other women, this all seems a tad strange to me. Do men think bragging about 'fixing' their ED impresses women? It doesn't this one, I just see them as egotistical tossers. But maybe that's just me.
Or is it just to impress other men as something to brag about? Which amounts to a p*ssing competition and an even worse reason.

Is it about 'health' really?

Or is it about selling expensive products to cater to the same panic syndrome that makes aging fools grow pony tails and buy Harleys or dinky Sports Cars and dress like old pimps with a gold tooth and necklace to pretend they still 'got it' to impress younger women who aren't worth impressing?
Or for that matter aging women putting plastic faces and Jello boobs on wrinkled bodies who think they're foolin' anyone other than themselves.

Are aging wives a little worried about all these rejuvenated old studs wandering about looking for greener pastures?

What's it really all about ...'Alfie'??

Oh yeah, forgot. It's a PRODUCT sales pitch posted to appear to be earnest comments by tame Doctors to give appearances of validity. Like the dentists flogging toothpaste in the mirror on TV ads. Right. Got it now.



... yes, M it's perfectly okay with me to flick this post. Couldn't resist, over it now... sorry. :bigwink: :rofl:
 
HaHaHa good one -- you got me. sifu


Fountain of youth stuff has been around sense beginning of man. Its not going to change. Its one of the driving forces on this planet. While Freud originated the term libido the word was given more definition by Jung explaining it to be a creative force of man, of which the biological procreation was just one side. Unfortunately main stream got hold and changed it to having a primary sexual orientation.
I certainly agree with Diwundrin that the economic flux from this outcome could probably be better channeled thru increases in social resources, however this has little to do with Hormone replacement management as it exists today. Only in the last 5 years has it been able to "rip" away from the dogma of big pharm and become available to regular folks on an affordable level. Over 50,000 women die yearly from incorrect/estrogen levels from the wrong information and use of conjugated estrogens pushed by the folks Diwundrin (marketing) points out occurring during the 70-90's era. Death from a heart attack in men by lack of estrogen converted testosterone isn't even considered by the current medical community to be a reason, (non-causality). How can anyone, at any age when the statistics are already stacked to reflect preconceived notions, form a legitimate opinion on hormones. Compared to test the years and numbers of studies done on estrogen are 1000 times greater, yet no agreement among the people who should know. What are they afraid of? Could it be peer pressure? Ask the people who take the products.

Just a reminder to Sifu---t3 works really well for depression
 
rt3 said:
Just a reminder to Sifu---t3 works really well for depression
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Long-term concerns are still in the majority of opinions of most psychiatrists, most of them preferring the FDA-approved Aripiprazole and Quetiapine. It also seems to be best practice to monitor thyroid indices and to cycle-off for 5-7 days since T3 is so strong.
 
there isn't a good lab test for tsh, if you want to test for rt3 and t3 you could certainly get values. Psychiatrist, clinical psychologist aren't really up to speed on t3, and there is a body of evidence indicating t3 works just as well. t3 has none of the side effects associated with the drugs you mention, and the specific side effects of t3 are mostly beneficial. t3 has a 1/2 like of 4-6 hours so I don't understand why you are cycling of for 5-7 days. I've talked to body builders who when using HCG and injecting large doses of test, will cycle off t3, but not "normal" people.
Love the cenegenics add, this site must be using some type of AI search tool to get this up.
 
Most of the longest living people never where vaccinated never seen a doctor or went to the hospital if that's what it takes to live long I guess I am out of luck but I am going to do my best.
 

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