Yeah - it must be true if some anti-gun idiot says it.
In other articles, the Covid vaccines prevent Covid.
School shooting in Nashville!!
- Thread starter Ronni
- Start date
In other articles, the Covid vaccines prevent Covid.
Thanks for saying it for me.
My concern is not to save the world from evil people. No one can do that. There will always be evil. Gun control has not & will not prevent evil.
My concern is protecting myself & my loved ones.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
@squatting dog and @win231 are you saying that longer prison sentences or maybe better law enforcement is about all we can or should do about the high homicide rate in the US?
I agree that people convicted of murder and other violent crimes need to be in jail, in the case of murder for life. Studies have shown that released murderers are much more likely to repeat than the average citizen. For example see Who will kill again? (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589871X19300555).
A disturbing finding of that study was juveniles who commit murders are too likely to do it again, suggesting that we should keep juveniles murderers in prison. A quote "Drawing on all juvenile homicide offenders in the Netherlands between 1992 and 2007, studied 137 offenders that were released. Among these offenders, 59% recidivated with 16 offenders (3% of the total sample) committing another homicide".
However I would hope there are other things we can do to keep more people from committing that first murder.
@squatting dog the Three Strike thing is alive and well, 28 states have some version of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-strikes_law
I agree that people convicted of murder and other violent crimes need to be in jail, in the case of murder for life. Studies have shown that released murderers are much more likely to repeat than the average citizen. For example see Who will kill again? (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589871X19300555).
A disturbing finding of that study was juveniles who commit murders are too likely to do it again, suggesting that we should keep juveniles murderers in prison. A quote "Drawing on all juvenile homicide offenders in the Netherlands between 1992 and 2007, studied 137 offenders that were released. Among these offenders, 59% recidivated with 16 offenders (3% of the total sample) committing another homicide".
However I would hope there are other things we can do to keep more people from committing that first murder.
@squatting dog the Three Strike thing is alive and well, 28 states have some version of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-strikes_law
So Time magazine, a long respected and conservative magazine, published an article written by a Stanford law professor, based on a huge study, and you dismiss it as "biased."
What's your prime source of information? Dale Gribble's gun club?
rgp
Well-known Member
- Location
- Milford,OH
If I may jump in here ? ..... It is the appeals system that creates extra income for the attorneys .... And that is most important ...
And attorney's go on to become DA's & judges.
perChance
Member
Not talking about problems won't make them disappear and talking about them doesn't mean we are insensitive to the pain and sorrow of the victims and their families.Exactly. Dogs missing their owners. Children missing their parents. Brothers and sisters missing their siblings.
And here we are arguing about gun laws.
We are not arguing - we are exchanging ideas. It is good to hear other opinions and viewpoints. We are not ostriches.
Ronni
The motormouth ;)
- Location
- Nashville TN
I am angry at the parents of the shooter. At the same time, as a parent myself, I know how conflicted I’ve been over the years at my own children’s dubious choices. They’re my kids so of COURSE I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, a second chance, more or greater understanding.
One of my kids is a drug addict, in recovery now for many years. Successful now and close to his siblings and me. But it was bad. His addiction progressed to the point where he did jail time a few times and ultimately became homeless. He made many questionable choices, and as a result so did I in my efforts to manage him and his issues.
No, he didn’t pick up a gun and shoot anyone, but he certainly could have if he’d had access to one. He was out of his mind countless times. He did own knives and brandished them when he was high. He threatened me and others (which to this day he can’t discuss without deep grief and remorse.) He certainly drove impaired many many times.
My point? Don’t judge those parents too harshly. We’ll likely never know how they struggled, what they struggled with, how many interventions, their angst and struggles with their child. I know that personally I was always at LEAST one step behind how bad my son’s addiction was. When I thought his use was occasional it was already habitual. By the time I realized he had an addiction issue he was essentially a junkie.
I am a good parent, have raised 5 amazing and successful and law abiding children, we are a very close-knit and connected family, but for a while there I didn’t know whether my son was going to live or die, end up in jail for a lifetime, kill himself or someone else. It was a wretched awful time and stretched my endurance and sanity to its limits. And it could have gone very differently than it did because at the end of the day, I realized that my kid’s actions, his grip on sanity, his addiction, were out of my control.
I didn’t cause it. I can’t cure it. I can’t control it. Same goes for Hale’s parents.
One of my kids is a drug addict, in recovery now for many years. Successful now and close to his siblings and me. But it was bad. His addiction progressed to the point where he did jail time a few times and ultimately became homeless. He made many questionable choices, and as a result so did I in my efforts to manage him and his issues.
No, he didn’t pick up a gun and shoot anyone, but he certainly could have if he’d had access to one. He was out of his mind countless times. He did own knives and brandished them when he was high. He threatened me and others (which to this day he can’t discuss without deep grief and remorse.) He certainly drove impaired many many times.
My point? Don’t judge those parents too harshly. We’ll likely never know how they struggled, what they struggled with, how many interventions, their angst and struggles with their child. I know that personally I was always at LEAST one step behind how bad my son’s addiction was. When I thought his use was occasional it was already habitual. By the time I realized he had an addiction issue he was essentially a junkie.
I am a good parent, have raised 5 amazing and successful and law abiding children, we are a very close-knit and connected family, but for a while there I didn’t know whether my son was going to live or die, end up in jail for a lifetime, kill himself or someone else. It was a wretched awful time and stretched my endurance and sanity to its limits. And it could have gone very differently than it did because at the end of the day, I realized that my kid’s actions, his grip on sanity, his addiction, were out of my control.
I didn’t cause it. I can’t cure it. I can’t control it. Same goes for Hale’s parents.
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PeppermintPatty
🔷 💜 🔷
@perChance - Nowhere did I suggest that anyone was insensitive to the pain and sorrow of the victims and their families
You can view this exchange however you’d like. I’m not trying to change your mind or anyone else’s and just because I don’t wish to dive into this conversation doesn’t mean I’m an ostrich.
How I responded to an innocent cartoon are MY feelings and mine alone and I’m not changing them. I’d appreciate if you do the same.
I didn’t personally insult anyone and think my comments in this thread have been very civil; especially considering the topic.
Trust me on this one, you don’t want me unleashing what I REALLY think about this conversation.
Astounding post (((Ronni))). Straight from the gut.
Thank you for that, Ronni. Whenever a young person goes wrong like this, I always notice how quickly others start to question the parents. "How could they not know?" "Why didn't they get help for her." That last one always triggers me. What "help" are they talking about?
Many small towns like mine don't even have one psychiatrist, let alone a clinic with therapists. Hospitals wont do a thing for your child unless he/she has proven to be a danger to himself or others. As one psychiatrist put it -- he has to be either holding a gun to his head or holding one to my head.
Even after suicide attempts they will patch up the patients' wrists, keep them overnight, then ask them the next morning if they still feel like killing themselves. If they say, "No," they're sent home. It took me a full ten years to "get help" for my son, in spite of multiple suicide attempts, and dozens of doctor appointments made by me but refused to go to by him,
Finally one night he threatened to kill himself and ran outside. I was desperate, I called the police with my heart pounding -- you think black people are in danger from the police? -- mentally ill people are shot by the police at a much greater percentage. But that's the only way to forcibly commit, the "men in white coats" are a thing of the past.
Turns out they were very kind police, they took my son to a psychiatric hospital in the next town, where he was started on the medication he had always needed and now, 20 years later, he's still on it and doing fine. But why should it be so difficult why were his twenty's completely lost in psychosis? These are some things our country could work on instead of throwing up red flag laws to increase stigma and forcing psychiatrists to report on their patients so they will have more reason to fear keeping that appointment? My son was never a danger to anyone but himself but many would fear him if they knew.
Only 5% of mass shootings are done by mentally ill people. https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/mass-shootings-and-mental-illness
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perChance
Member
Sometimes I feel I'm echoing the old Strother Martin line - "What we've got here is a failure to communicate".
Your comment "And here we are arguing about gun laws." suggested that other posters shouldn't discuss gun laws.
I suggested that discussion was good.
Your response reminded me of the wolf in the story of the three little pigs: "I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down."
PeppermintPatty
🔷 💜 🔷
Above is the post you are complaining about which was a response to an innocent cartoon.Exactly. Dogs missing their owners. Children missing their parents. Brothers and sisters missing their siblings.
And here we are arguing about gun laws.
I think you added meaning to my post that wasn’t there. My post wasn’t meant to shut anyone down for discussing the topic.Sometimes I feel I'm echoing the old Strother Martin line - "What we've got here is a failure to communicate".
Your comment "And here we are arguing about gun laws." suggested that other posters shouldn't discuss gun laws.
I suggested that discussion was good.
Your response reminded me of the wolf in the story of the three little pigs: "I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down."
It’s a debate forum. My only mistake was that I used the incorrect terminology. Instead of using the word ‘argue’ I should have used the word debate.
From my point of view, I felt needlessly picked on for innocently commenting on a sentimental cartoon of a dog missing its owner, which really choked me up.
So call me a ‘Wolfe from the 3 little pigs!’
I’m done caring at this point.
perChance
Member
I wasn't "complaining" and I wasn't picking on anyone. I made a comment that discussion of problems is productive.Above is the post you are complaining about which was a response to an innocent cartoon.
I think you added meaning to my post that wasn’t there. My post wasn’t meant to shut anyone down for discussing the topic.
It’s a debate forum. My only mistake was that I used the incorrect terminology. Instead of using the word ‘argue’ I should have used the word debate.
From my point of view, I felt needlessly picked on for innocently commenting on a sentimental cartoon of a dog missing its owner, which really choked me up.
So call me a ‘Wolfe from the 3 little pigs!’
I’m done caring at this point.
Your comment "And here we are arguing about gun laws" suggested that other posters shouldn't discuss gun laws.
I suggested that discussion was good.
Your comment "Trust me on this one, you don’t want me unleashing what I REALLY think about this conversation." indicates that you did not understand my post. I want to hear everyone's views - what is the point of a forum if it isn't to communicate with other people.
George1959
Senior Member
It is remarkable that you give us so much insight into a very sensitive topic and I believe you without any doubt. But regarding Hale's family I'd prefer if you had written "Perhaps same goes for Hale's parents", as we don't know.
PeppermintPatty
🔷 💜 🔷
From Merriam-Webster dictionary
debate
2 of 2
verb
debated; debating
transitive verb
1
a
: to argue about
———————
the subject was hotly debated
b
: to engage (an opponent) in debate
a governor debating her challenger
2
: to turn over in one's mind : to think about (something, such as different options) in order to decide
****************************
From this dictionary’s definition it looks like to debate IS to argue so you lectured me over ONE WORD you didn’t like in my post which basically means the same thing
to debate = to argue
perChance
Member
I wasn't lecturing anyone. Now a quote by Joan Rivers come to mind.
"Oy vey es mir."a quote by Joan Rivers come to mind.
Posting the following links for your information:
'Trans Day of Vengeance' Date, Details as Activists Say 'We Choose to Fight'
https://www.newsweek.com/trans-day-vengeance-date-details-activists-choose-fight-1791451Controversial group behind 'Trans Day of Vengeance' raised money for firearms training - as other trans protestors pose with guns ahead of march in DC on Saturday
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...Vengeance-raised-money-firearms-training.html
perChance
Member
Well they've certainly chosen an appropriate day for it.
Ronni
The motormouth ;)
- Location
- Nashville TN
“I didn’t cause it. I can’t cure it. I can’t control it. Same goes for Hale’s parents.”
this is what you’re talking about, right? See, the thing is @George1959, I have a very different perspective. They could not control their adult child anymore than I can control mine, or that you can control yours if you have any.
Yes, they could have kicked her out, taken whatever guns she had in their home, reported her to the police, taken strident and aggressive action. That still doesn’t control their daughter. They didn’t put a gun in her hands. Whatever actions they take, that doesn’t cure her of her dysfunction.
At the end of the day, the only person we can control is ourselves. We can take action towards another to hopefully mitigate or delay an outcome…maybe. But still the adult child or loved one’s own mental state, their choices, their willingness to seek help or determination to avoid it, those are the things that control the outcome. The only things.
In my humble opinion anyway, having lived for years with my countless attempts to manage and control my son’s addiction and the damage that did to himself, his loved ones, his property, his own mental health, we can’t control anyone but ourselves.
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This group seems to bear a particular hatred for Christians and they also seem to think all Christians are alike.
The school Audrey Hale attacked is Presbyterian. I grew up Presbyterian, one of the most liberal denominations and leaders in the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's along with Methodists and Jewish people.
From their website stated in 2018:
Jules
SF VIP
I still don’t understand your anger towards the parents. You were successful, because you were trying very hard and eventually it worked. Why do you think that they weren’t. The little factual knowledge I‘ve seen is that they found a gun and made her sell it.
As for preventing that first murder, the solution is better mental health care. And better mental health care does not mean more drug prescribing (which obviously makes the problem worse). But those solutions cost money & that's probably why they are not considered.
Ronni
The motormouth ;)
- Location
- Nashville TN
I fully recognize that my anger towards the parents is irrational. I mean I posted all the reasons why they shouldn’t be held accountable!! I don’t know why I’m angry at them. I am angry and gutted about the entire situation. I want to lash out, hit someone, break some thing. None of that is rational, and I recognize that.
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