Supreme Court overturning Roe v Wade?

I've wondered that as well. Plan to get a box to have on hand for my niece. She and her boyfriend of one year are 17, both virgins but that can quickly change. We've discussed that it's hours...sometimes 24 before fertilization occurs and what the morning after pill does. I'd already thought about getting a box in case she ever needs it and doesn't have $40.00. Am for sure going to now.
Good Thinking.
 
As I have mentioned once before, I was impregnated at the age of thirteen. Fortunately, kind people took pity on me, and arranged for me to have an abortion. A perfect solution, no, but under the circumstances, the best one.
I don't know if I posted in that thread quite awhile back or not, but my viewpoint:

There are some circumstances in which I believe abortion is not wrong- and is the most humane approach.
Second, when a girl has an abortion - even if the situation was different from yours- she deserves compassion, not condemnation.
The other point on which I disagree with most "pro-lifers" is girls/women who genuinely do not want the babies should not be pressured into keeping/raising them.

However, I'm not ok with the approaches that's it's "nothing but healthcare" and "a woman's right to choose."
As one example: I read on a blog from a young woman in her twenties that said she's already had 8 abortions because she didn't want to have kids til she was in her thirties!! Not ok, really not.
 
"anecdotal" ?........ for the nation ? Look at the amount of popular votes H/Clinton received in "16" against Trump, then the "squad", AOC, Biden's win ....... I think that alone speaks volumes itself in more recent times.

Then go back to the 60's/70's civil-rights / womens-rights, I believe these were slow advances of liberalism , that has continued to grow.

As for your "surroundings" I do not know ..... But I'll take your word for it.
What do the squad and AOC have to do with anything? They represent their districts only. As for Biden, I won't break the political rules here and neither should you. A remark, causes another remark, etc. and before you know it the rules of this forum are broken. Won't be by me.
 
Slavery and women's right to vote were both established with amendments to the constitution. Nothing stopping folks from trying to pass an amendment for abortion. You just have to get 2/3 of congress and 2/3 of states to approve.

I can think of a lot if things where the minority has to accept the rules of the majority. Abortion is not unique in that regard. For example, a couple of weeks ago, while at my local Florida Walmarts early on a Sunday morning, I wanted to pick up a bottle of wine for dinner. When I scanned it at the self-checkout, a light went off, and some nice lady told me, by law, it was too early in the day to buy wine. lol. What about my minority rights?

And, I respect folks who have a different opinion than me, and don't consider them "backwards".
If during the '60's black civil rights were dependent on it, majority rule would have southern black people still living under Jim Crow. I guess you have no problem with that. You are entirely too cavalier over what constitutes women's rights not to be enslaved, yes, I'm using that word. And you have no idea what I mean, I don't think. Why? The obvious reason.
 
What do the squad and AOC have to do with anything? They represent their districts only. As for Biden, I won't break the political rules here and neither should you. A remark, causes another remark, etc. and before you know it the rules of this forum are broken. Won't be by me.


I mentioned them because I feel a few years ago when the nation was more conservative ..... they would not have been elected.
 
I don't think the Supreme Court can do that. Check and see if the SC has ever made any laws.

I bet what's going to happen is the SC will be forced to decide when life begins. They're going to have to if more and more states want to prohibit abortion "because it robs the unborn of it's Constitutional rights."

Most of you probly know that only about 7% of all abortions are performed in the 3rd trimester. And I don't know but it's likely most of that 7% are performed bc the unborns are already dead, certain to die from defective vital organs, have unsustainable defects, OR, the pregnancy is killing the mother.

Still a matter between the woman and her doctor, period. Just like SC said vaccines are between you and your healthcare provider, so is abortion. No state should have the right to create laws that dictate what you and your doctor can and can't do to improve your health.
This is a simplistic response, because I don't want to do the legal research to explain it fully, and you all sure don't want to read that if I did. Except for the 10th Amendment portion of my discussion, this is all coming straight out of my head.

(1) SCOTUS decides whether state laws are constitutional. Let's say they decide that denying the right to an abortion is unconstitutional. That decision applies to the states. Now the right to an abortion is, in effect, the law of the land. It is not the law in actuality because laws are statutes and are passed by Congress.

(2) Now comes the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The amendment provides no new powers or rights to the states, but rather preserves their authority in all matters not specifically granted to the federal government nor explicitly forbidden to the states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights#Second_Amendment

If Congress passes a law stating that marijuana is a forbidden substance, for example, then the states can't legalize it. But some have! How? No one has contested what the states have done, or, presumably sent the feds in to arrest people for having personal use amounts of marijuana in their possession. So the feds appear to be ignoring this. Amounts greater than for personal use are evidence of possession with intent to distribute. So Sally May can get her edibles from the local pot shop. But Leroy Jenkins, who sells pot on his own, and has 10 kilos in his possession, will be charged with, among other things, intent to distribute, which is against the federal law too but not ignored. If Leroy pays Sally May to store the pot in her apartment for him, Sally May will be on the hook too, but not for her personal use amount of edibles (hopefully).

The DEA or FBI can swoop down on the pot shops or even the people, and arrest everybody, and a huge brouhaha will result. The feds have not given up their right to prosecute the illegal use of marijuana. The DEA and the FBI have bigger fish to fry.

(3) If Congress had passed a law (and they could still do so) making abortion legal in the US, the states would have to comply with it. A lot of lawsuits would arise. The federal courts would handle it, and unless SCOTUS decided to hear a case that the federal courts had decided, then the federal courts decisions would stand. SCOTUS hears cases at their discretion.

(4) If SCOTUS hears the appeal, after it has been through the lower courts, then it can declare that the new abortion law is, or isn't, unconstitutional. SCOTUS recently decided that the decision in Roe v. Wade is not covered in the Constitution. Because of that, and because there is no federal statute saying that abortion is legal in the US, the states have the right to legislate abortion under the 10th Amendment.

(5) If Congress, in the future, passes a law legalizing abortion, then that will be the actual law of the land. Or should be, merely because the recent case decided abortion rights are not conferred by the Constitution, and now that Congress has passed a law saying abortion in legal, the states would no longer have the right to pass laws about it. The precedent of the recent case is that Roe v. Wade is not covered by the Constitution. If a law isn't unconstitutional, which abortion is not, then the feds can legislate and the states will have to follow that.

(6) What happens next will be a lot of lawsuits filed by states in the federal courts. The fact is, you can never predict what the fallout will be. But it seems to me, just an ordinary person, that if Congress passed a law legalizing abortion, it would stand. Again, this is written in stone. And SCOTUS may wait until lots of cases have been decided, with the federal appeals courts disagreeing on the resolution, before it hears a case on this. Or it may never take up the issue at all.

The words in statutes

Lets talk about statutes, all of them - both state and federal. If you read one, that's not all there is. First, the meaning of the specific words in the statute can be litigated. In one of my cases, the word "Kindergarten" did not include private kindergartens, in a state statue about drug dealing within a certain distance from a school. That was my argument. There had been no cases decided on this issue in my state, so I drew on dictionary definitions and cases that had been decided in other states.

It's not just word definitions and the actions of other states in situations like this that matter. All sorts of history in the writing of a statue and beyond, also counts in a legal argument. Often it boils down to arguing over what the lawmakers intended to mean. This means the lawyers involved spend a lot of time doing legal research on precedent and on the history of the statute, etc. This includes researching the same stuff from other states, if necessary.

This can happen with any statutory litigation. I won. So my guy was "not guilty" because he didn't break the law. The prosecutor could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that my guy had committed all the elements of the crime because private kindergartens were not part of the definition of schools in the statute.

Immediately, the state Legislature changed the statute. I was very glad about that.

(Keep in mind that a defense attorney's duty is to make sure the government (prosecutor) proves all elements of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. A defense attorney cannot make it personal and decide the guy is guilty, for example, and not give the guy the ethical and comprehensive representation he deserves under the law and under the code of ethics for attorneys. In my case with the kindergarten, there were lots of lawyers who thought I would lose. I could have, but I didn't. I was really glad because it was my first appellate case and I would for public counsel services in my state, which represents defendants who cannot afford to hire a lawyer.)

In another case, not one of mine, the statute was on point. The defendant shot the plaintiff who was walking by his house on the sidewalk. His insurance covered it under legal precedent which the courts for many decades had agreed upon. The plaintiff won in the trial court. The decision was appealed, and the appellate court changed their minds, and now the insurance did not cover the shooting. So the plaintiff lost in the end, and the lawyers were shocked.

Now the Shockerooni

Although I full agreed with the conclusion in Roe v. Wade, I thought it was contrived, that the court had overreached. As I analyzed the case (in law school), I was amazed at the gobbledygook that had resulted in the case's conclusion. It seemed to me that the argument was really convoluted, and did not hold together in a logical manner. I still think that.

What should have happened is that Congress should have passed a law legalizing abortion, and taken the issue away from the states, before this latest debacle.


 
Question: What's the problem with States passing laws that their residents want? The 10th Amendment states "the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The Court put it back to the States where, in my opinion, it should have always been. This, along with other things over the years.

Anymore, I don't give polls much credence. I feel they can be skewed to fit any argument in my opinion. Usually too small of sample have been taken from a narrow swath of people and the way a question is worded can make it confusing as to what they are really asking. So saying that a majority of American's didn't want it overturned, I will take with a grain of salt.

Another problem is that a small number of people can and will make a lot of noise to get what they want, majority be damned. This along with the inability to have a civil conversation while agreeing to disagree. Sadly, this is taking place on a lot of subjects as of late.

I had been indifferent to this issue for a long time, but the noise-makers made me re-think about it. In my opinion, at this time, I believe should be allowed to save the life of the mother or in the case of rape/incest.

There is too much misinformation out there along with some serious hysteria going on based on emotions and not facts. Too much propaganda I FEEL is being spewed about other things being taken way is just a way to keep everyone riled up.

Just a few my thoughts...
 
I have a young lady friend who recently celebrated her 27th (I think) birthday. She was a "premie", born at 24 weeks or so, along with a twin. The twin did not survive, and the young lady certainly has some minor physical disablities. She takes it personal when you so casually say the unborn child has no rights, because you are talking about her. It is not a simplistic as you would like to make it. "Period."
I understand that. There was a 24 week baby in the NICU with my boys. She weighed one pound, and I hope she survived. Having babies in the NICU is very harrowing, so much can go wrong, and extremely quickly, from one second to the next. At 27 weeks, we were told that our boys had a 90% chance of survival, but one was at death's door twice (the docs had "death conferences" with us).

The vast, vast majority of abortions do not occur during the weeks that a fetus is potentially viable. Laws which legalize abortion can outlaw late-term abortions with or without exceptions, and they can define within the statute the term "late term abortions".

When I was offered an abortion, I don't remember how far along I was, but it was more than 12 weeks. I would have had to go to one of two states that allowed pregnancies to be "reduced". I was really angry at the doc for bringing it up, but it was apparent the hospital policy. I can see that now, but at the time I was angry because it was so unthinkable, but I did have the right to know all my options.
 
Slavery and women's right to vote were both established with amendments to the constitution. Nothing stopping folks from trying to pass an amendment for abortion. You just have to get 2/3 of congress and 2/3 of states to approve.

I can think of a lot if things where the minority has to accept the rules of the majority. Abortion is not unique in that regard. For example, a couple of weeks ago, while at my local Florida Walmarts early on a Sunday morning, I wanted to pick up a bottle of wine for dinner. When I scanned it at the self-checkout, a light went off, and some nice lady told me, by law, it was too early in the day to buy wine. lol. What about my minority rights?

And, I respect folks who have a different opinion than me, and don't consider them "backwards".
Buckeye, I don't think you really meant that slavery was established with amendments to the Constitution, did you? You meant the abolition of slavery.
 
First, I can personally attest; birth control doesn't always work. What the whole world needs is improved birth control, both pills and devices.

Second, when an unwanted child is born, taxpayers wind up paying for his or her needs at a minimum of $50K a year for as long as 18 years.
My 4th child, my daughter, is a product of my husband and I not using any birth control. That pregnancy was a total surprise. How did it happen?

My doctors, after my boys were born, said I did not need birth control because there was a 0% chance I could get pregnant. There was a physical reason. I had surgery when I was I child and scar tissue had strangled my Fallopian tubes. I had surgery for that right before we resorted to our planned one IVF attempt. There was absolutely no way to fix the scar tissue problem, and there was no way an egg could get from my ovaries to my uterus.

Physically it was impossible for me to get pregnant. Yet I did. The worst part was that my husband and I did not know how it happened. We had done nothing! This lack of memory is understandable - I averaged 3 hours of sleep a night for a couple of years, and we were both always tired and stressed. At this point, the boys were still in serious condition, even though they were home, and caring for them was nonstop.

Not to worry. My daughter had her DNA done by 23andme (not for this reason) -- we are her parents -- not that we ever doubted it.
 
This is not 'the woman's body'

View attachment 226808
That is a late term pregnancy. My boys were born at 27 weeks. They had very tiny little flaps where the ears would be, no nipples, no finger or toe nails, they could not breathe on their own, they could not regulate their body temperature, they did not have the sucking reflex. The situation resolved as the babies developed.

The fetus in the photo seems to have ears that are developed a lot more than tiny flaps, can't tell about the nails and nipples. Nonetheless, this is a late term baby. There are very few late term abortions, so I don't think this picture represents fetuses which could be aborted.
 
I don't know if I posted in that thread quite awhile back or not, but my viewpoint:

There are some circumstances in which I believe abortion is not wrong- and is the most humane approach.
Second, when a girl has an abortion - even if the situation was different from yours- she deserves compassion, not condemnation.
The other point on which I disagree with most "pro-lifers" is girls/women who genuinely do not want the babies should not be pressured into keeping/raising them.

However, I'm not ok with the approaches that's it's "nothing but healthcare" and "a woman's right to choose."
As one example: I read on a blog from a young woman in her twenties that said she's already had 8 abortions because she didn't want to have kids til she was in her thirties!! Not ok, really not.
The vast, vast majority of women do not use abortion as birth control. I don't agree with that either, but I'm not going to worry about it because of a few who use it for reasons I disagree with.
 
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(6) What happens next will be a lot of lawsuits filed by states in the federal courts. The fact is, you can never predict what the fallout will be. But it seems to me, just an ordinary person, that if Congress passed a law legalizing abortion, it would stand. Again, this is written in stone. And SCOTUS may wait until lots of cases have been decided, with the federal appeals courts disagreeing on the resolution, before it hears a case on this. Or it may never take up the issue at all.


What should have happened is that Congress should have passed a law legalizing abortion, and taken the issue away from the states, before this latest debacle.


Those 2 things are the most pertinent, imo, and the first thing will probably make the 2nd thing a reality, although state legislators have the power to create laws that sort of tweak congressional laws, and sometimes even ignore them.

For example, across the board it's legal to own a gun, but gun laws vary from state to state. Marijuana use is another example; while federal law prohibited its use, Calif law did not. Tough luck if the FBI busted you, but to the local sheriff and CHP, no sweat unless you're carrying or growing more than the amount of "reasonable use" for one person.
 
25 years or so My young cousin and her husband were thrilled to be expecting their first child, my uncle and his wife were thrilled to be grandparents. Then they went for her ultrasound they were informed that something had gone wrong and her amniotic fluid was actually attacking the baby boy's skin and causing pain for the fetus. They recommended she terminate the pregnancy but they couldn't do it in the hospital she would have to go to an abortion clinic.The young couple were devastated. Not only were they losing a baby they wanted so much but at the clinic there were protestors, my cousin had to hear people yelling at her "Oh mother don't kill your baby". When her father was dying she was able to say goodbye. She told me that she told him when he got there to look for his grandson. That was years later after they had 2 girls that were so loved, but she never forgot the baby she lost.
 
Question: What's the problem with States passing laws that their residents want?

Anymore, I don't give polls much credence. I feel they can be skewed to fit any argument in my opinion. Usually too small of sample have been taken from a narrow swath of people and the way a question is worded can make it confusing as to what they are really asking. So saying that a majority of American's didn't want it overturned, I will take with a grain of salt.

Another problem is that a small number of people can and will make a lot of noise to get what they want, majority be damned. This along with the inability to have a civil conversation while agreeing to disagree. Sadly, this is taking place on a lot of subjects as of late.

I had been indifferent to this issue for a long time, but the noise-makers made me re-think about it. In my opinion, at this time, I believe should be allowed to save the life of the mother or in the case of rape/incest.

There is too much misinformation out there along with some serious hysteria going on based on emotions and not facts. Too much propaganda I FEEL is being spewed about other things being taken way is just a way to keep everyone riled up.

Just a few my thoughts...
Problem #1, with lawmakers, is that they often ignore what their constituents want.

Yes, SCOTUS gave the states the ability to make laws about abortion. Congress could have and should have done something about that, by enacting a law that legalized abortion, during the many years between the Roe v. Wade decision and now.

I think that whether to give a poll credence depends on the poll. Yes, not all polls are statistically valid. However, it certainly possible for them to be. Statistics is a branch of mathematics, after all. Luckily for me, if I have a question about a poll's validity, she knows the answer.

The small number of people who make a lot of noise remind me of a toddler having a temper tantrum. I'm sure that throughout the history of the country, some have been correct, though. I can remember several times thinking, as I read about a historical event, that the small number of people were correct and it is a good thing they were persistent. So on current issues, I try to determine what the noisemakers are on about, and whether they make any good points. I try not to close my brain off to only one side of an issue, although often it is very tempting. It also depends on whether I have the bandwidth to get stressed about issues ... sometimes I don't.

I agree with you that there is a lot of propaganda and outright lies about the facts surrounding various issues. The worst part, to me, even if we can find a very reliable source to determine what the facts are, we will never really know. Too much goes on behind the scenes that we are not privy to, and often we are not privy to all the issues that seriously impact the one at hand. IOW, if the government makes a decision that we disagree with, how do we know that we would still disagree with it if we knew all of the factors that went into making the decision? Simple put, we don't.
 
Those 2 things are the most pertinent, imo, and the first thing will probably make the 2nd thing a reality, although state legislators have the power to create laws that sort of tweak congressional laws, and sometimes even ignore them.

For example, across the board it's legal to own a gun, but gun laws vary from state to state. Marijuana use is another example; while federal law prohibited its use, Calif law did not. Tough luck if the FBI busted you, but to the local sheriff and CHP, no sweat unless you're carrying or growing more than the amount of "reasonable use" for one person.
Yup, with your first point. A lawsuit in federal court must be filed for a decision about whether the state has overstepped its bounds.

The gun laws that vary among the states must not be the sole province of the Feds. My interest in gun laws is solely with what the Feds legislate about them.
 
Premature births don't always have a happy ending despite weeks, even months of hospitalization. On that side of the spectrum of life just as extensive medical support measures with the elderly, modern medicine sometimes 'plays God' to the point it is --to me-- unethical and inhumane. Do realize this is subjective.
As happy as I was that my boys were born alive, it was heartbreaking to watch them continue their former
prenatal development in a NICU. It is also futile to wish they were still in-utero, but I did. What really got to me were the constant bright lights and all the beeping from all the infants' many monitors. The incubators, too, don't resemble the environment of the uterus. Neither does being intubated, and being handled by nurses and doctors. None of that is ideal for preemies, even though it is necessary.

At the same time, I was immensely grateful at the excellent medical care the babies were receiving, and words cannot describe how glad I was that they survived.
 
Is this it ?.. quote
The issues surrounding this matter are clearly contentious,” the DA, Gocha Allen Ramirez, said. “However, based on Texas law and the facts presented, it is not a criminal matter.”

The prosecutor added: “Ms Herrera did not commit a criminal act under the laws of the state of Texas.”


The woman who was thrown in jail on a murder charge in Texas for allegedly having caused the “death of an individual by self-induced abortion” has been released after the local district attorney dropped the case.

Lizelle Herrera, 26, was reported to be back with her family on Sunday after the district attorney in Rio Grande City, on the US-Mexico border, put out a statement saying he was immediately dismissing the case. Herrera had been arrested last Thursday and placed in the Starr county jail on the back of a grand jury indictment.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-murder-charges-dropped-self-induced-abortion
Holly - I wonder why we in the USA get better news reporting from the Brits than we do at home, in my opinion, based on observations.
 
I'm not making a case for or against..it's now up to the citizens of each state to decide.

The state supreme courts would overturn such a law without a state constitutional amendment to back it up. Adding amendments is quite difficult. Since it is not illegal under federal law I see no reason to address it. They don't have to justify the reasoning by law, but do have to justify it to the voters.

Casey opened the door in '92 for viability that is gone as well. I'd venture a guess that since '73, without Roe, most very restrictive laws would have been moderated by now. There are plenty of states that will continue to offer unrestricted access, others will be forced to yield to their voters one way or another.

This is the way it should have always been, pressure on state legislators works. Until now it was all a drill.

Why so many don't realize all politics is local is beyond me. Every election is important and sometimes have unintended consequences.

The former president made it very clear in the debates on national TV that he would appoint three justices that might overturn Roe. People didn't listen then?
Sure people listened during the election before last. That's how Mrs. Clinton won the popular vote. I wish the election results were based on the popular vote. To me, that's democracy.
 


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