oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
This is the first I've ever seen anyone say AQ is a politically oriented group. Every other source I've seen acknowledges it as a militant, not political group. Can you back that up with any source?
Will The Taliban Take Kabul on 9-11?
- Thread starter fmdog44
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This is the first I've ever seen anyone say AQ is a politically oriented group. Every other source I've seen acknowledges it as a militant, not political group. Can you back that up with any source?
Don M.
SF VIP
- Location
- central Missouri
The Kabul airport is total chaos as people are trying to leave Afghanistan. They are clinging to departing aircraft, and there have even been reports of some plummeting to the ground as the aircraft took off.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kabul-airport-chaos-video-taliban-afghan-planes-145655579.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kabul-airport-chaos-video-taliban-afghan-planes-145655579.html
Alligatorob
SF VIP
Looks very familiar to me. My father was a civilian employee of the US Air Force at the end in Vietnam. He actually got out 2 days before the end, the helicopter on the embassy roof day. He flew out in a plane that had been stripped of everything removable, seats included, to pack as many people on as possible. No one was allowed any luggage, just the clothes they had on. Most in the plane were Vietnamese, in the chaos he got mixed in. He was flow to a refugee camp in Guam, it took days before he was able to contact us and tell us he was safe. That was before cell phones and the internet.
In the end most Americans got out of Vietnam safely, even those left behind at the end. A lot of Vietnamese were not so lucky.
Nathan
SF VIP
- Location
- High Desert- Calif.
Afghanistan has simply returned to where it was, prior to the U.S. occupation. Nothing's changed. Sounds a lot like the case with Vietnam, foreign powers invade, occupy...then leave...country returns to normal.
Aunt Bea
SF VIP
- Location
- Near Mount Pilot
Murrmurr
SF VIP
- Location
- Sacramento, California
I don't watch Fox news. I don't watch CNN, either. And I didn't mention ISIS, Mujahideen, al-Qaeda, or al-Daawa. They are not involved whatsoever in what I was talking about.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
You made a general statement but offered no evidence to support it. I have seen similar comments in the Jerusalem Post and Fox but not in any reliable sources. Look all you want and you will never find any proof to verify the comment you made. It simply does not exist. By contrast, I made a declaration and backed it up with valid sources. Shiia and Sunni denominations are at war with each other - have been for centuries. We have no business intervening in their affairs.
AnnieA
Well-known Member
- Location
- Down South
Pot meet kettle. I'm still waiting for your sources showing that the "vast majority of Afghanistan's citizens were loyal to the Taliban." I'd especially like to hear from the "vast majority" of women Taliban supporters.
mellowyellow
Well-known Member
......
………..As district after district fell in this summer’s Taliban offensive, without much visible support from the Afghan national army and police forces, other soldiers simply made the calculation that it wasn’t worth fighting anymore—especially if the Taliban offered them safe passage home, as they usually did.
“Everyone just surrendered their guns and ran away,” said Rahimullah, a 25-year soldier who joined the army a year ago and served in the Shahr-e-Bozorg district of northeastern Badakhshan province. “We didn’t receive any help from the central government, and so the district fell without any fighting.”…………..
Source: The Wall Street Journal
https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghanistan-army-collapse-taliban-11628958253
………..As district after district fell in this summer’s Taliban offensive, without much visible support from the Afghan national army and police forces, other soldiers simply made the calculation that it wasn’t worth fighting anymore—especially if the Taliban offered them safe passage home, as they usually did.
“Everyone just surrendered their guns and ran away,” said Rahimullah, a 25-year soldier who joined the army a year ago and served in the Shahr-e-Bozorg district of northeastern Badakhshan province. “We didn’t receive any help from the central government, and so the district fell without any fighting.”…………..
Source: The Wall Street Journal
https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghanistan-army-collapse-taliban-11628958253
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
As James Carafano of Fox said, Afghans cheer on the Taliban's return:
No protests, no guns, all peacefully assemble. It took the Taliban no more than 1 week to reclaim what is theirs. True, a few treasonous types who collaborated with the invaders have tried to escape. But in a land of 40 million you don't see too many trying to leave.
mellowyellow
Well-known Member
I think America’s intentions were initially to dismantle terrorist groups who helped create such hatred towards the west, suicide bombers were lining up to blow us all up. Somehow, as time went by, the wheels fell off.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
People in the Middle East view the American occupation of their land as terrorism. No surprise as to why they hate the puppet regimes imposed by the West.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
People always cheer on the victors, its the only safe thing to do...
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
I remember when crowds cheered on when the Saddam statues were toppled in Iraq. It was said at that time that the crowd was paid to be there. Dunno if true but that was the rumor. The Taliban does not generally allow cheering. If fact, they would take a small whip to your hands if you cheered at football matches. As for those who think their resurgence is unpopular, how do you explain how they so easily, and I mean easily, took over and were just handed over weapons by Afghan soldiers?
Alligatorob
SF VIP
No idea how popular or unpopular the Taliban are, and they are not about to allow a vote to see. Once the Afghan soldiers believed they were on the losing side I suspect it was for self preservation. Obviously the Taliban have some support, and not just a little. But a majority? We'll never know.
Clearly we had little to no support. Sure hope we can learn our lesson and keep out of places like that.
Clearly we had little to no support. Sure hope we can learn our lesson and keep out of places like that.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
As I wrote before on this site, history shows that you cannot win a war and occupy a land successfully without support of the majority of its people. This is why the invaders from the USA lost in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Had the majority supported the invasion and colonialist occupation the Taliban would have been defeated especially after the trillion dollars their enemies got.
Don M.
SF VIP
- Location
- central Missouri
The biggest losers in Afghanistan, in coming weeks, will be the women. Just as they were beginning to lead a life of freedom, they will most likely be put back into a life of servitude.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Will be interesting to see how the minority groups such as Tajiks and others respond to this return of power and how they are treated.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Afghanistan’s military collapse: Illicit deals with Taliban and mass desertions - The Washington Post
The spectacular collapse of Afghanistan’s military that has allowed Taliban fighters to reach Kabul’s gates on Sunday despite 20 years of training and billions of dollars in US aid It began with a series of agreements negotiated in rural villages between the militant group and some of the lower-ranking officials of the Afghan government.
The deals, initially offered early last year, often were described by Afghan officials as a ceasefire, but the leaders Taliban in fact they were offering money in exchange for government forces to hand over their weapons according to an Afghan official and a US official.
Over the next year and a half, the meetings progressed to the district level and then rapidly to the provincial capitals, culminating in an impressive series of negotiated deliveries by government forces, according to interviews with more than a dozen Afghan officers, police , special operations troops and other soldiers.
Over the past week, more than a dozen provincial capitals have fallen to Taliban forces with little or no resistance. In the early hours of Sunday, the government-held city of Jalalabad surrendered to the militants without firing, and the security forces in the districts surrounding Kabul simply vanished. Within hours, the Taliban forces arrived unopposed at the four main entrances to the Afghan capital.
The pace of the military collapse has surprised many US officials and other foreign observers, forcing the US government to dramatically accelerate efforts to withdraw personnel from its Kabul embassy.
The Taliban capitalized on the uncertainty caused by the February 2020 agreement reached in Doha, Qatar, between the militant group and the United States calling for a full American withdrawal from Afghanistan. Some Afghan forces realized that they would soon no longer be able to count on American air power and other crucial support on the battlefield and became receptive to the Taliban’s approaches.
“Some just wanted the money,” an Afghan Special Forces official said of those who first agreed to meet with the Taliban. But others saw the US commitment to a total withdrawal as a “guarantee” that the militants would return to power in Afghanistan and wanted to secure their place on the winning side, he said. The officer spoke on condition of anonymity because, like others in this report, he was not authorized to release information to the press.
The Doha agreement, designed to end the war in Afghanistan, instead left many Afghan forces demoralized, highlighting the corrupt impulses of many Afghan officials and their tenuous loyalty to the country’s central government. Some police officers complained that they had not been paid for six months or more.
“They saw that document as the end” the official said in reference to the majority of Afghans aligned with the government. “The day the agreement was signed, we saw the change. Everyone was looking out to themselves. It was as if (the United States) let us fail. “
Negotiated deliveries to the Taliban gradually picked up pace in the months after the Doha agreement, according to a US official and an Afghan official. Then, after President Joe Biden announced in April that US forces would withdraw from Afghanistan this summer unconditionally, capitulations began to grow.
As militants expanded their control, government-occupied districts were increasingly left without a fight. Kunduz, the first key city invaded by militants, was captured a week ago. Days of negotiations mediated by tribal elders resulted in a surrender agreement that handed over the last government-controlled base to the Taliban.
Soon after, negotiations in the western province of Herat resulted in the resignation of the governor, senior officials from the Interior and Intelligence Ministry and hundreds of troops. The agreement was concluded in a single night.
I was so embarrassed,” said a Kabul-based Interior Ministry official, referring to the handover of senior Interior Ministry official Abdul Rahman Rahman in Herat. “I am just a small person, I am not that big. If he does that, what should I do? “
Over the past month, the southern province of Helmand also witnessed a massive surrender. And when the Taliban fighters locked themselves in the southeastern province of Ghazni, its governor fled under the protection of the Taliban only to be arrested by the Afghan government on his way back to Kabul.
Several capable and motivated elite units have participated in the Afghan army’s fight against the Taliban. But they were often dispatched to provide back-up to less well-trained police and army units that have repeatedly withdrawn under pressure from the Taliban.
An Afghan special forces officer stationed in Kandahar who had been assigned to guard a critical border crossing recalled being ordered by a commander to surrender. “We want to fight! If we surrender, the Taliban will kill us. “said the Special Forces officer.
Don't fire a single shot,” the commander told them as the Taliban swarmed the area, the officer later recounted. Border police immediately surrendered, leaving the Special Forces unit alone. A second officer confirmed his colleague’s recollection of the events.
Not wanting to surrender or fight for the lowest, the unit downed their weapons, changed into civilian clothes, and fled their post.
“I am ashamed of what I have done,” said the first officer. But he said that if he had not fled, “my own government would have sold me to the Taliban.”
When an Afghan police officer was asked about his force’s apparent lack of motivation, he explained that they have not been receiving their wages. Several Afghan policemen on the front lines in Kandahar before the city’s fall said that they had not been paid in six to nine months. The rewards from the Taliban have become increasingly attractive.
“Without the United States, there was no fear of being caught up in corruption. He took the traitors out of our army, ”said an Afghan police officer.
Several officers from the Kandahar police force said that corruption was more to blame for collapse than incompetence. “I honestly don’t think it can be fixed. I think they need something completely new, ”said Ahmadullah Kandahari, an officer in the Kandahar police force.
In the days leading up to Kandahar’s capture earlier this month, the number of victims in the police had become visible. Bacha, a 34-year-old police commander, had been constantly retiring for more than three months. He had hunched over and his garb more ragged. In an interview, he said that repeated withdrawals had bruised his pride, but that he was unpaid, which made him feel desperate.
“The last time I saw you, the Taliban were offering $ 150 for anyone in the government to surrender and join them,” he told a journalist as the interview came to an end. “You know, what is the price now?”
He didn’t laugh and several of his men leaned forward, eager to hear the answer.
illegal deals
unpaid soldiers and police
corrupt government
''mass desertions'' ~ so massive that the trillion dollar Afghan army collapsed under it.
Small wonder why the vast majority of the Afghanistan populace are so readily disposed to side with the Taliban.
Behind the collapse of the Afghan army: illicit deals and mass desertions
The spectacular collapse of Afghanistan’s military that has allowed Taliban fighters to reach Kabul’s gates on Sunday despite 20 years of training and billions of dollars in US aid It began with a series of agreements negotiated in rural villages between the militant group and some of the lower-ranking officials of the Afghan government.
The deals, initially offered early last year, often were described by Afghan officials as a ceasefire, but the leaders Taliban in fact they were offering money in exchange for government forces to hand over their weapons according to an Afghan official and a US official.
Over the next year and a half, the meetings progressed to the district level and then rapidly to the provincial capitals, culminating in an impressive series of negotiated deliveries by government forces, according to interviews with more than a dozen Afghan officers, police , special operations troops and other soldiers.
Over the past week, more than a dozen provincial capitals have fallen to Taliban forces with little or no resistance. In the early hours of Sunday, the government-held city of Jalalabad surrendered to the militants without firing, and the security forces in the districts surrounding Kabul simply vanished. Within hours, the Taliban forces arrived unopposed at the four main entrances to the Afghan capital.
The pace of the military collapse has surprised many US officials and other foreign observers, forcing the US government to dramatically accelerate efforts to withdraw personnel from its Kabul embassy.
The Taliban capitalized on the uncertainty caused by the February 2020 agreement reached in Doha, Qatar, between the militant group and the United States calling for a full American withdrawal from Afghanistan. Some Afghan forces realized that they would soon no longer be able to count on American air power and other crucial support on the battlefield and became receptive to the Taliban’s approaches.
“Some just wanted the money,” an Afghan Special Forces official said of those who first agreed to meet with the Taliban. But others saw the US commitment to a total withdrawal as a “guarantee” that the militants would return to power in Afghanistan and wanted to secure their place on the winning side, he said. The officer spoke on condition of anonymity because, like others in this report, he was not authorized to release information to the press.
The Doha agreement, designed to end the war in Afghanistan, instead left many Afghan forces demoralized, highlighting the corrupt impulses of many Afghan officials and their tenuous loyalty to the country’s central government. Some police officers complained that they had not been paid for six months or more.
“They saw that document as the end” the official said in reference to the majority of Afghans aligned with the government. “The day the agreement was signed, we saw the change. Everyone was looking out to themselves. It was as if (the United States) let us fail. “
Negotiated deliveries to the Taliban gradually picked up pace in the months after the Doha agreement, according to a US official and an Afghan official. Then, after President Joe Biden announced in April that US forces would withdraw from Afghanistan this summer unconditionally, capitulations began to grow.
As militants expanded their control, government-occupied districts were increasingly left without a fight. Kunduz, the first key city invaded by militants, was captured a week ago. Days of negotiations mediated by tribal elders resulted in a surrender agreement that handed over the last government-controlled base to the Taliban.
Soon after, negotiations in the western province of Herat resulted in the resignation of the governor, senior officials from the Interior and Intelligence Ministry and hundreds of troops. The agreement was concluded in a single night.
I was so embarrassed,” said a Kabul-based Interior Ministry official, referring to the handover of senior Interior Ministry official Abdul Rahman Rahman in Herat. “I am just a small person, I am not that big. If he does that, what should I do? “
Over the past month, the southern province of Helmand also witnessed a massive surrender. And when the Taliban fighters locked themselves in the southeastern province of Ghazni, its governor fled under the protection of the Taliban only to be arrested by the Afghan government on his way back to Kabul.
Several capable and motivated elite units have participated in the Afghan army’s fight against the Taliban. But they were often dispatched to provide back-up to less well-trained police and army units that have repeatedly withdrawn under pressure from the Taliban.
An Afghan special forces officer stationed in Kandahar who had been assigned to guard a critical border crossing recalled being ordered by a commander to surrender. “We want to fight! If we surrender, the Taliban will kill us. “said the Special Forces officer.
Don't fire a single shot,” the commander told them as the Taliban swarmed the area, the officer later recounted. Border police immediately surrendered, leaving the Special Forces unit alone. A second officer confirmed his colleague’s recollection of the events.
Not wanting to surrender or fight for the lowest, the unit downed their weapons, changed into civilian clothes, and fled their post.
“I am ashamed of what I have done,” said the first officer. But he said that if he had not fled, “my own government would have sold me to the Taliban.”
When an Afghan police officer was asked about his force’s apparent lack of motivation, he explained that they have not been receiving their wages. Several Afghan policemen on the front lines in Kandahar before the city’s fall said that they had not been paid in six to nine months. The rewards from the Taliban have become increasingly attractive.
“Without the United States, there was no fear of being caught up in corruption. He took the traitors out of our army, ”said an Afghan police officer.
Several officers from the Kandahar police force said that corruption was more to blame for collapse than incompetence. “I honestly don’t think it can be fixed. I think they need something completely new, ”said Ahmadullah Kandahari, an officer in the Kandahar police force.
In the days leading up to Kandahar’s capture earlier this month, the number of victims in the police had become visible. Bacha, a 34-year-old police commander, had been constantly retiring for more than three months. He had hunched over and his garb more ragged. In an interview, he said that repeated withdrawals had bruised his pride, but that he was unpaid, which made him feel desperate.
“The last time I saw you, the Taliban were offering $ 150 for anyone in the government to surrender and join them,” he told a journalist as the interview came to an end. “You know, what is the price now?”
He didn’t laugh and several of his men leaned forward, eager to hear the answer.
illegal deals
unpaid soldiers and police
corrupt government
''mass desertions'' ~ so massive that the trillion dollar Afghan army collapsed under it.
Small wonder why the vast majority of the Afghanistan populace are so readily disposed to side with the Taliban.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Why the Taliban Won
Why the Taliban Won | Foreign Affairs
In the end, it took astoundingly little time after U.S. forces left Afghanistan for the Taliban to bring down its government: ten days.
... Afghan National Defense and Security Forces ... units were making deals with their supposed enemy—warning the Taliban of forthcoming offenses, refusing to fight, and selling the group weapons and equipment.
... the dramatic meltdown of Afghanistan’s army only exposes the rot that had been festering in Kabul’s halls of power for years. No wonder the Afghan population trusted its government so little, and no wonder one Afghan city after another surrendered to the Taliban this week.
... the principal responsibility for this tragic end to 20 years of state-building efforts in Afghanistan lies squarely with the Afghan leadership.
{elitist corruption} the ruling class in Kabul chose not to fix the military or improve governance. Instead, political leaders focused on acquiring power and money for themselves and patronage for their cliques. They constantly sought to generate political crises or administrative paralysis in order to extract more patronage and rents from the central government ... They saw little reason to reform the ANDSF or respond to the needs of everyday Afghans.
There you have it folks. The trillion dollars you paid all went into the hands of the wealthy elites and the corrupt politicians in the puppet regime that governed Afghanistan. None went into the hands of the poor. The poor were left to rot for the past twenty years. Is it any wonder why the majority were so readily disposed to support the Taliban?
This is what happens when a society decides to enrich the rich and to screw the poor. It will always be true whether in Afghanistan or here in the USA. Do not enrich the wealthy. Instead, prop up the poor and society will be better for it. For those who are Christian read the Book of Amos in the Old Testament. The entire book is based on that truthful premise. This proves that premise is universal and of perpetual truth.
OneEyedDiva
SF VIP
- Location
- New Jersey
If you thought some militants would blow your head off and those of your family members would you assemble other than peacefully? And where would all those people go? They know they won't be accepted here in the U.S. What means do they have to transport themselves to and find living quarters in who knows where? Fox News is a joke!As James Carafano of Fox said, Afghans cheer on the Taliban's return:
No protests, no guns, all peacefully assemble. It took the Taliban no more than 1 week to reclaim what is theirs. True, a few treasonous types who collaborated with the invaders have tried to escape. But in a land of 40 million you don't see too many trying to leave.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Oldiebutgoody, I have never looked at the Book of Amos so your last paragraph intrigued me. I am aware of the persistent theme in the OT of social justice for the poor. Jesus in the NT condemned the disregard of the wealthy for the plight of the poor.
So I did look at Amos and this is the introduction that I found -
I have a feeling that we need Amos as much now as Israel did in the 8th century BCE.
So I did look at Amos and this is the introduction that I found -
I have a feeling that we need Amos as much now as Israel did in the 8th century BCE.
fuzzybuddy
SF VIP
- Location
- The Sticks, Northeast PA.
It's not so much that the Taliban are winning battles as the Afghan military is not fighting back. Why is the West always supports regimes with billions in military, and economic aid; and those regimes are so hated by their citizens, their armies won't even fight for them?
helenbacque
Senior Member
- Location
- Central Florida
True peace in any country cannot be bought using someone else's dollars or blood. It must come from the hearts of those involved. If enough Afghani people wanted it, it would happen. If 20 years did not bring it about, its doubtful 21 would either.
- Status