If you know god, then what?

[VaughanJB]

God isn't statisical. You can't prove BUT you can't disprove. So what did you just say that provides any information????

I directly responded to a post. I also mentioned that a God is unfalsifiable. But that cuts both ways. On the one hand, it doesn't mean he does exist. On the other, it doesn't means he does. Which side of the fence you fall is up to you. Such a statement renders belief in line with an opinion. Your opinion is either that he does, or does not, exist.

I'm not a religious scholar (by a wide mark). However, the idea that a God would in any way punish someone for not believing just sounds mean. God will have been well aware of the circumstances of ones life, so ought to be able to understand why belief doesn't exist. God has never spoken to me, but the trope seems to be that it must somehow be MY fault. How come? If God proved himself to me, I'd believe. Wouldn't any rationale person? I've simply seen no evidence.

I also don't think the excuses made are reasonable. Free will seems to simply be an excuse believers use to excuse the fact that their God appears mean spirited. If something goes wrong, it can't possibly be God's fault. Must be that whole "free will" thing. Free Will Is a Get out of Jail Free card, imo.

I won't even start with the idea we're all born with the original sin.

All that said - I've no issue with your own belief. I don't think less of you, and I don't think more. I simply think you're entitled to that opinion.

 

[bobcat]

People are egotistical enough to believe that they, imperfect beings, actually know GOD, a perfect being. Most people know OF God, through teachings, study of theology, but how can anyone actually say they know GOD – we don’t really even know our very best friend. All we know are concepts taught to us and these concepts come from man and his slant on what we should believe.

If you really want to know GOD, then go out in nature, study and observe, give up all the ridiculous things we are all attached to (money being the worst). Reset your life and then maybe you will know some of God. I do believe that something exists beyond this life. Whether there is one God or many Gods, doesn’t matter. What matters is that we ascend spiritually as much as we can while living on this earth.

Agreed. I have enjoyed many aspects of Ecospirituality. It is allowing the mind to sync up with nature in a meditative state. Quite an experience.

 

[MACKTEXAS]

I guess the hard part to understand would be this:

If Hell means just being dead, and if you're already dead, then why resurrect someone only to let them die after judgment.
If Hell means a fiery death, then you have already done that if you're cremated, so why repeat it.
If Hell means an eternal torment, what would be the point. There is nothing to be gained from tormenting people forever.
If Hell means an eternal separation from God, then dead sinners already have that.
So, as you can see, it gets a bit confusing.

Bobcat, if I present a certain theological explanation for one question, I get 4 more questios (as seen from your list above). I'm not criticising you, because they are legitimate questions, but I didn't "make the rules," (if you will) nor do I have all the answers to Bible questions, and never claimed to.

But as to this part you wrote: "If Hell means an eternal separation from God, then dead sinners already have that" - yes - some Christians believe that death forever is solely what the Bible means by eternal separation from God. That isn't to say I either agree or disagree with them.

I could spend an hour or two looking into all those questions, then compose a new post, which would invariably lead to more questions - if not from you, from others. I choose not to spend endless amounts of my time in that manner, since I don't recall any examples where subjects of this nature get resolved with ongoing debate - either among members of this forum, or members of the Christian community as a whole.

 

[WheatenLover]

The "flames of hell" are seen by some teologians as a metaphor for an eternal joyless existence, and "streets of gold", rather than being literal, may symbolize the beauty, serenity, and perfection of heaven.

Ever since I was a child, I've wondered if heaven is boring. When very young, I thought dead people became angels (theologically unsound) and sat on clouds all the time (very wettifying), singing hymns. I don't know where I got that idea, since the only church my sister and I attended was in my bedroom on Sunday mornings, with a children's Bible, a project that didn't last long. We did go to Sunday school three times once. Coloring pictures... listening to boring speech, not my thing.

And what about perfection? Isn't that in the eye of the beholder? To me, heaven would be perfect if they had dancing music and dancing, books and reading, many baked goods and eating, many dogs and reveling, and many people to get to know. Also, it could not always be serene, with the music, dogs, and people. Plus with so much beauty right here on earth, why relocate us?

I have met many Christians who think dancing is a sin and who think most really fun music is a sin to listen to. Some books are a sin to read. Some people are a sin just to talk to! Believe it or not, I met some of these people while I was in Bible college. Turns out that I didn't like that, and did not become a missionary after all. Must point out that for a very long time, I have not agreed with the idea of being a missionary.

As for an eternal joyless existence, many folks find that here on earth. I've heard people say they don't believe in hell because it is here on earth.

 

[MACKTEXAS]

Ever since I was a child, I've wondered if heaven is boring. When very young, I thought dead people became angels (theologically unsound) and sat on clouds all the time (very wettifying), singing hymns. I don't know where I got that idea, since the only church my sister and I attended was in my bedroom on Sunday mornings, with a children's Bible, a project that didn't last long. We did go to Sunday school three times once. Coloring pictures... listening to boring speech, not my thing.

And what about perfection? Isn't that in the eye of the beholder? To me, heaven would be perfect if they had dancing music and dancing, books and reading, many baked goods and eating, many dogs and reveling, and many people to get to know. Also, it could not always be serene, with the music, dogs, and people. Plus with so much beauty right here on earth, why relocate us?

I have met many Christians who think dancing is a sin and who think most really fun music is a sin to listen to. Some books are a sin to read. Some people are a sin just to talk to! Believe it or not, I met some of these people while I was in Bible college. Turns out that I didn't like that, and did not become a missionary after all. Must point out that for a very long time, I have not agreed with the idea of being a missionary.

As for an eternal joyless existence, many folks find that here on earth. I've heard people say they don't believe in hell because it is here on earth.

No one finds all the answers, but I hope you have, or will come to peace with those thoughts. I can't imagine a Heaven that would be boring.

 

[gruntlabor]

Although the Bible is subject to wide interpretation, Christian theology generally agrees that all the dead will be resurrected to face a final judgment.

An omniscient God could resurrect a body that had been cremated as easily as one that had turned to dust over time after a normal burial, or as easily as he created the first human from dust.

The "flames of hell" are seen by some teologians as a metaphor for an eternal joyless existence, and "streets of gold", rather than being literal, may symbolize the beauty, serenity, and perfection of heaven.

With no formal teaching beyond Sunday school, my impressions are a little different.
1) Those who were told but would not listen are dead or will die, and will remain dead.
2) God and his angels live in the kingdom of heaven.
3) The dead who were saved will be resurrected to live on the earth with the living faithful.
** Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. --Matthew 5:5 **

 

[Nathan]

Just a reminder: even though you think you know, you really don't. But, whatever gives you comfort in the here-and-now can't be discounted.

 

[MarkD]

There is No God.

A Monist can answer that God is all there is throughout the cosmos and in us. To someone with an analytic bent (that used to be me) that won’t do at all. They need parts to work out simple causes and effects. Nothing wrong with that and materialism is just another monism. Materialism works great with science
but you can never give an adequate account of consciousness with nothing but matter.

 

[Warrigal]

Ever since I was a child, I've wondered if heaven is boring. When very young, I thought dead people became angels (theologically unsound) and sat on clouds all the time (very wettifying), singing hymns. I don't know where I got that idea, since the only church my sister and I attended was in my bedroom on Sunday mornings, with a children's Bible, a project that didn't last long. We did go to Sunday school three times once. Coloring pictures... listening to boring speech, not my thing.

And what about perfection? Isn't that in the eye of the beholder? To me, heaven would be perfect if they had dancing music and dancing, books and reading, many baked goods and eating, many dogs and reveling, and many people to get to know. Also, it could not always be serene, with the music, dogs, and people. Plus with so much beauty right here on earth, why relocate us?

I have met many Christians who think dancing is a sin and who think most really fun music is a sin to listen to. Some books are a sin to read. Some people are a sin just to talk to! Believe it or not, I met some of these people while I was in Bible college. Turns out that I didn't like that, and did not become a missionary after all. Must point out that for a very long time, I have not agreed with the idea of being a missionary.

As for an eternal joyless existence, many folks find that here on earth. I've heard people say they don't believe in hell because it is here on earth.

I recommend you look up George Bernard Shaw's 3 act play "Man and Superman". The second act revolves around Don Juan, a woman he had seduced, and her father, all of whom have died and found themselves in Hell. Which of them is elevated to Heaven is counter intuitive. Startling as it seems, it does make sense in a perverse kind of way.

And yes, Shaw posits that Heaven is indeed boring and most people are happier with all of their friends in "the place below".

 

[bobcat]

Bobcat, if I present a certain theological explanation for one question, I get 4 more questios (as seen from your list above). I'm not criticising you, because they are legitimate questions, but I didn't "make the rules," (if you will) nor do I have all the answers to Bible questions, and never claimed to.

But as to this part you wrote: "If Hell means an eternal separation from God, then dead sinners already have that" - yes - some Christians believe that death forever is solely what the Bible means by eternal separation from God. That isn't to say I either agree or disagree with them.

I could spend an hour or two looking into all those questions, then compose a new post, which would invariably lead to more questions - if not from you, from others. I choose not to spend endless amounts of my time in that manner, since I don't recall any examples where subjects of this nature get resolved with ongoing debate - either among members of this forum, or members of the Christian community as a whole.

I understand Mack, and yes there are many unanswered questions. However, I appreciate your honesty here and will respect the desire to abstain. You're a gentleman, as always.

 

[JustDave]

Ever since I was a child, I've wondered if heaven is boring.

My grandmother who lived upstairs taught me about God when I was still learning to talk. She said that in heaven you sing praises to god all day long while sitting on benches of gold, and she was ecstatic about it. I sounded boring to me, but it was better than the alternative of being constantly whipped by the Devil, as he forced you to stand in flames and feed coal to a furnace while everyone was sad and crying.

She had indoctrinated my dad and my uncle, but my mother stepped in and decided such morbid teachings were not appropriate, and my immediate family became Lutherans, which wasn't as scary, but still boring.

In Sunday school, I was intrigued by the felt board, which the teacher used to tell us Bible stories, but one time, I realized that she was using the same felt figure to represent Moses that she had been using to represent Joseph. That was somewhat upsetting to me. I knew where that felt board was stored, and I always wanted to play with it, and see if I could find a different figure for Moses, but we were given strict instructions not to play with the felt board. So I learned early on that the best things about life were often "no nos", and the good things were boring.

Later as my logic developed, I struggled for many years trying to believe, but eventually threw in the towel when I accepted that you can never know about God. You had to settle for believing which was not even in the same ball park with knowing. It's more practical to settle for not knowing than it is driving yourself berserk deciding whether or not you should believe something without any credible evidence.

 

[bobcat]

My grandmother who lived upstairs taught me about God when I was still learning to talk. She said that in heaven you sing praises to god all day long while sitting on benches of gold, and she was ecstatic about it. I sounded boring to me, but it was better than the alternative of being constantly whipped by the Devil, as he forced you to stand in flames and feed coal to a furnace while everyone was sad and crying.

She had indoctrinated my dad and my uncle, but my mother stepped in and decided such morbid teachings were not appropriate, and my immediate family became Lutherans, which wasn't as scary, but still boring.

In Sunday school, I was intrigued by the felt board, which the teacher used to tell us Bible stories, but one time, I realized that she was using the same felt figure to represent Moses that she had been using to represent Joseph. That was somewhat upsetting to me. I knew where that felt board was stored, and I always wanted to play with it, and see if I could find a different figure for Moses, but we were given strict instructions not to play with the felt board. So I learned early on that the best things about life were often "no nos", and the good things were boring.

Later as my logic developed, I struggled for many years trying to believe, but eventually threw in the towel when I accepted that you can never know about God. You had to settle for believing which was not even in the same ball park with knowing. It's more practical to settle for not knowing than it is driving yourself berserk deciding whether or not you should believe something without any credible evidence.

Reminds me of a thread I did a couple years back, inquiring whether a person could believe something willfully without evidence.
Could you willfully believe something if there was a significant reward in it?

It would seem that if there was an absence of evidence, and you desired to believe something because it offered comfort or security, then confirmation bias should be able to sway you. However, many felt it doesn't work that way.

I think evidence of some sort is always there on either side of the camp, it's just a question of whether it rises to the level of being valid or relevant in your mind. Maybe it just needs a little push, IDK.

 

[MACKTEXAS]

I understand Mack, and yes there are many unanswered questions. However, I appreciate your honesty here and will respect the desire to abstain. You're a gentleman, as always.

Thanks for your courtesy Bob. There are many other subjects we agree on and I appreciate your views. A gentleman? That's a high compliment because I have to work on my behavior a lot.

With no formal teaching beyond Sunday school, my impressions are a little different.
1) Those who were told but would not listen are dead or will die, and will remain dead.
2) God and his angels live in the kingdom of heaven.
3) The dead who were saved will be resurrected to live on the earth with the living faithful.
** Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. --Matthew 5:5 **

Yes, many believe that way. I have been visited recently by Jehovah's Witness members who expressed the same points you listed, except for #2 - in addition to God and his angels, they believe a select group of 144,000 souls will be in heaven. The rest of the redeemed will be resurrected to live in a new earth. Their belief is different from mine, but I am familiar with how they reconcile their key points to various scriptures.

 

[JustDave]

[Could] a person believe something willfully without evidence.
Could you willfully believe something if there was a significant reward in it?

A belief can be paramount in a person's mind. The next step is to gather together anything that they believe supports it, whether it actually supports it or not. They just need to believe it supports it. Alternative explanations are rejected if they don't feed the belief. Belief then gets confused with knowledge, and it feels like closure. It's not really willful. It's just sloppy processing. Although it could be wilful in some cases.

 

[IrishEyes]

The Bible emphasizes that understanding spiritual truths often requires faith. For instance, 1 Corinthians 2:14 states that "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

This to me was the KEY to my struggles with understanding the Bible. I read that verse over and over and over. Then I had to look deep
within to see how strong my faith really was. No one could do this except myself, no minister, no writer, no therapist,
I realized for me firstly I had to know what the 10 Commandments truly covered and not take them as the simple phrases that they were. I prayed for finding the way I could absorb them and apply them fully.

I was just setting up my classroom in a new school and had to make a poster of my Classroom rules. Every other classroom had a list
of at least 10-20 Do and Do Nots on them. Mine came up with 1. Be Safe, 2. Be Honest, 3. Be kind. I had to laugh because I immediately
knew why it was so simple, so pure "Because everything a child can and will do is involved with one or more of those things.

Johnny grabs a toy from Billy, Billy grabs it back, Johnny pushes Billy, both say the other started it.
I sit both down and ask both...grabbing the toy- was that kind? (#3 broken) Pushing - was that safe? (#1 broken) Which one really started it -
(#2 broken)
Simple phrases are easier to remember than paragraphs and lists. Making them see the answer makes them think.

I look at the 10 Commandments as THE most important section to know and understand and realize everything that falls
under any given Commandment. Many people take them too literally is my belief, so they stretch their faults out of being under
one of them.
I took this lesson in simple rules that just flooded out of me as the answer to my prayer in a way I COULD understand. My sister
would not have come to the same reasoning.
This helped me achieve a deeper essence of my faith and I began to understand the bible, in MY way, much much clearer. I can't
pull up a verse on demand. I speak common every day language and hope I can pass it along to others.

 

[gruntlabor]

...1 Corinthians 2:14 states that "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Many people seem incapable of things of the spirit, but isn't love a spiritual feeling?
We don't need to be believers to be spiritual, as for example Carl Sagan, Steven Hawking, Einstein --just a little awe and respect for nature, the universe, the unknown is a good start.

 

[Warrigal]

I think faith and belief are different concepts. I associate faith with trust. It is a conscious act. Belief, on the other hand is acceptance some concept that appears to be true. As knowledge grows our beliefs move with the new knowledge. Knowing the facts about the structure of the Universe, it is no longer possible (for me) to believe in a three tiered universe where God and Heaven are above the clouds and Hell awaits sinners deep down in the fiery chasms below our feet.

Regardless of my knowledge of outer space, which is rather out of date these days, I choose to place my trust in some unfathomable benign presence that, for want of a better word, I call God. My heart and mind are in unison about this concept. If I am deluding myself, so what? If I am motivated to examine the ancient scriptures and find wisdom within, then I am enriched by my faith.

It has led me to my wonderful church community where I, along with like-minded people, contemplate the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as we grow in faith and seek to live better, less selfish lives. In this community I have found inner peace and renewed purpose for the gift of being alive. I am ready to acknowledge that the purpose of life is to "love, and be loved in return". *

* Nature Boy, Nat King Cole

 

[Warrigal]

The Bible emphasizes that understanding spiritual truths often requires faith. For instance, 1 Corinthians 2:14 states that "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

This to me was the KEY to my struggles with understanding the Bible. I read that verse over and over and over. Then I had to look deep
within to see how strong my faith really was. No one could do this except myself, no minister, no writer, no therapist,
I realized for me firstly I had to know what the 10 Commandments truly covered and not take them as the simple phrases that they were. I prayed for finding the way I could absorb them and apply them fully.

I was just setting up my classroom in a new school and had to make a poster of my Classroom rules. Every other classroom had a list
of at least 10-20 Do and Do Nots on them. Mine came up with 1. Be Safe, 2. Be Honest, 3. Be kind. I had to laugh because I immediately
knew why it was so simple, so pure "Because everything a child can and will do is involved with one or more of those things.

Johnny grabs a toy from Billy, Billy grabs it back, Johnny pushes Billy, both say the other started it.
I sit both down and ask both...grabbing the toy- was that kind? (#3 broken) Pushing - was that safe? (#1 broken) Which one really started it -
(#2 broken)
Simple phrases are easier to remember than paragraphs and lists. Making them see the answer makes them think.

I look at the 10 Commandments as THE most important section to know and understand and realize everything that falls
under any given Commandment. Many people take them too literally is my belief, so they stretch their faults out of being under
one of them.
I took this lesson in simple rules that just flooded out of me as the answer to my prayer in a way I COULD understand. My sister
would not have come to the same reasoning.
This helped me achieve a deeper essence of my faith and I began to understand the bible, in MY way, much much clearer. I can't
pull up a verse on demand. I speak common every day language and hope I can pass it along to others.

As a former school teacher, I love your classroom rules.

I am a product of the public school system in the 1940s and 50s. I began teaching in 1963 in the state system where the rules were as you described them. Strict, and mostly negative. By then I was a scientific atheist, convinced that religious beliefs were outmoded and unnecessary in the modern world, and in my life in particular.

Then my life took an unexpected and very different turn. After my children were born I needed a job and applied for a position in a nearby catholic junior high school. I was unfamiliar with catholic education and had never even met a nun before in my life. Against all odds I was given a position teaching maths and science. All that they asked of me was that I did not do or say anything that would undermine the religious teachings of the school.

That was no problem for me. I was not out to convert anyone to my way of thinking, but to get back to the point, I discovered what a difference it makes to the classroom when the rules are simple and positively expressed. When each child is valued and the poorest children, whether they are financially disadvantaged or intellectually/physically challenged, are loved and helped to realise their full potential.

I stayed teaching there for just over 25 years, learning and growing in the faith that was rekindled in me there in that community of kindness and inclusion. The wisdom of the nuns, and the vision of the founder of their order, grounded firmly in the gospels of the New Testament, still motivates me to this day.

 

[IrishEyes]

As a former school teacher, I love your classroom rules.

I am a product of the public school system in the 1940s and 50s. I began teaching in 1963 in the state system where the rules were as you described them. Strict, and mostly negative. By then I was a scientific atheist, convinced that religious beliefs were outmoded and unnecessary in the modern world, and in my life in particular.

Then my life took an unexpected and very different turn. After my children were born I needed a job and applied for a position in a nearby catholic junior high school. I was unfamiliar with catholic education and had never even met a nun before in my life. Against all odds I was given a position teaching maths and science. All that they asked of me was that I did not do or say anything that would undermine the religious teachings of the school.

That was no problem for me. I was not out to convert anyone to my way of thinking, but to get back to the point, I discovered what a difference it makes to the classroom when the rules are simple and positively expressed. When each child is valued and the poorest children, whether they are financially disadvantaged or intellectually/physically challenged, are loved and helped to realise their full potential.

I stayed teaching there for just over 25 years, learning and growing in the faith that was rekindled in me there in that community of kindness and inclusion. The wisdom of the nuns, and the vision of the founder of their order, grounded firmly in the gospels of the New Testament, still motivates me to this day.

Love your comment and that you understand about the Make it simple and lead them to figure it out. Empathy begins developing about 3 1/2 - 4 years old. I had a very simple way of leading them to exercise that process too. Which again, I referred to the 10 Commandments and applied
the teaching method of Jesus to help kick start that step from egotism (all young children have) without using religion verbiage to do so. I had
children of at least 7 religions and some of none, so I had to be fair and loving to each.
I am so glad you came to know, understand and use your knowledge to better your life, self and have that safety net. I know it sure helped
me through many hard times. Bless you Warrigal and Peace be with you

 

[rbtvgo]

“The first sip from the cup of science will make you an atheist, but when you drain the cup to the dregs, God is waiting for you at the bottom.”
~ Werner Heisenberg (1901–1976), German theoretical physicist and pioneer of quantum mechanics.

Civilization has been dealing with that ever since. Early scientific discoveries made people think we didn’t need God to explain the world, but now science has uncovered things that pure materialism can’t explain. The smallest units of matter aren’t physical objects in the ordinary sense. They are forms, ideas that can only be described clearly in mathematical language.

That brings us full circle. The deeper science looks into reality, the more it finds mystery, order, and purpose, qualities that point beyond chance. The laws of physics, the fine-tuning of the universe, and even the existence of consciousness all suggest that life isn’t an accident but something intentional.

The ancients looked for God in the heavens. Modern science finds the same wonder in the subatomic world and in the vastness of space. Maybe both are seeing different sides of the same truth.

So, if you know God, then what? You see that faith and reason aren’t enemies. They work together in the search for meaning. Science can tell us how things work, but God is still the why. And at the end of every honest search, whether through prayer or through physics, we find the same quiet truth, there is more here than matter.

I met my higher power one stormy night when I was struck by lightning at nineteen. He sent me back. I can’t say I "know" Him, but I know He’s with me.

there in is the understanding. you know

 

[rbtvgo]

I see knowing as not a necessity, although we are often preoccupied with knowing, sometimes on the order of obsession. This is true for the superstitious as well as the cosmologist. But if you absolutely need to know, conduct the search with reason. It may not get you where you want to go, but it's the most reliable thing we have.

My dog isn't preoccupied with knowing. He actually resists knowing, but I can through patience and repetition teach him things I want him to know: "You can chase the deer out of the yard, but you must not leave the yard." He knows this. I don't think he knows why. I doubt that "why" has ever crossed his mind. He doesn't seem to obsess on things. Wasted obsession seems to be a human trait.

you are not your dog. Want to be like him fine. Your good.
Trouble is that he looks to you for instructions. Where do you get the instructions to give to him?

 

[Warrigal]

Good friends, people who know about the issues, and a trust in myself that I will do everything I can to move on. One day, that won't be possible, like it has happened to those who were here before us. You want me to feel doubt and fear because I don't believe a biblical God. Correct me if I am wrong, but you being a hot Christian, u include God in everything, good for you. That makes me very happy.

There should be a rule on SF...no preaching.

I'm sure that most people are capable of switching off from posts that they find irritating. And there is still a hide button?

 

[Warrigal]

I guess the hard part to understand would be this:

If Hell means just being dead, and if you're already dead, then why resurrect someone only to let them die after judgment.
If Hell means a fiery death, then you have already done that if you're cremated, so why repeat it.
If Hell means an eternal torment, what would be the point. There is nothing to be gained from tormenting people forever.
If Hell means an eternal separation from God, then dead sinners already have that.
So, as you can see, it gets a bit confusing.

My suggestion would be to dig a bit deeper and try to understand the medieval mind, or if you can, the pre-Roman mind.

I found Genesis 1 made more sense to me when I was asked to read it and then think why the writer described a three tiered universe and the relationship humanity has with the natural world. The question was actually, "What is the viewpoint of the storyteller in Ch 1?" Obviously, thought I, he is standing on a mountaintop, looking at the sky above, the landscape before him, and thinking about the living creatures that inhabit the land, the sea and the sky.

He thought about it and realised that it was all good, and that mankind is a part all of it. Genesis 1 probably wasn't written down until the exile in Babylon. Before that it was passed from generation to generation orally and the structure of the text strongly suggests that to be true.

Our Australian indigenous culture passed on secret and sacred knowledge just this way. They did this by the campfire at night, through cave art and rock carvings and songs. They performed ceremonies of celebration for the gifts of creation and some stories were secret from certain members of the tribe. There was women's business and separately, men's business, that no boy could learn until after his initiation into manhood. Women who spied on men's business ceremonies could be killed.

As a young teen, I was horrified by the brutality of the account of the Hebrew attack on Jerricho. My 20th century sense of justice could not cope with the killing of one of the Hebrew soldiers for keeping for himself some of the spoils of the battle. It wasn't his killing that stirred me up - it was that they killed his wife and children as well! I could not believe that God would ask for that, and if God did, I most certainly did not like God.

I was really much too young to understand how such stories were fashioned in ancient civilisations, and for what purpose. Wisdom only comes much later in life when we have acquired broader knowledge of history and humanity and take the time to think about the more esoterical matters. That process is never over until we draw our last breath.

 

[Paco Dennis]

I'm sure that most people are capable of switching off from posts that they find irritating. And there is still a hide button?

Thanx, I just used it.

 

[bobcat]

My suggestion would be to dig a bit deeper and try to understand the medieval mind, or if you can, the pre-Roman mind.

I found Genesis 1 made more sense to me when I was asked to read it and then think why the writer described a three tiered universe and the relationship humanity has with the natural world. The question was actually, "What is the viewpoint of the storyteller in Ch 1?" Obviously, thought I, he is standing on a mountaintop, looking at the sky above, the landscape before him, and thinking about the living creatures that inhabit the land, the sea and the sky.

He thought about it and realised that it was all good, and that mankind is a part all of it. Genesis 1 probably wasn't written down until the exile in Babylon. Before that it was passed from generation to generation orally and the structure of the text strongly suggests that to be true.

Our Australian indigenous culture passed on secret and sacred knowledge just this way. They did this by the campfire at night, through cave art and rock carvings and songs. They performed ceremonies of celebration for the gifts of creation and some stories were secret from certain members of the tribe. There was women's business and separately, men's business, that no boy could learn until after his initiation into manhood. Women who spied on men's business ceremonies could be killed.

As a young teen, I was horrified by the brutality of the account of the Hebrew attack on Jerricho. My 20th century sense of justice could not cope with the killing of one of the Hebrew soldiers for keeping for himself some of the spoils of the battle. It wasn't his killing that stirred me up - it was that they killed his wife and children as well! I could not believe that God would ask for that, and if God did, I most certainly did not like God.

I was really much too young to understand how such stories were fashioned in ancient civilisations, and for what purpose. Wisdom only comes much later in life when we have acquired broader knowledge of history and humanity and take the time to think about the more esoterical matters. That process is never over until we draw our last breath.

Just my opinion here, but due to the common motifs and parallels to earlier creation stories, it seems likely to me that the Biblical account of creation was assimilated and tweaked a bit to fit the monotheistic beliefs of the early Israelite storytellers. The similarities suggest an acquired account rather than an actual one.

I think you are correct about the writing being done during the Babylonian exile, and there were likely some overlapping of cultural and historical perspectives and beliefs. I imagine this was a common occurrence throughout ancient history.