Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Couldn't have explained my relationship with the divine any better than that.
If you know god, then what?
- Thread starter Mr. Ed
- Start date
MACKTEXAS
Well-known Member
Although the Bible is subject to wide interpretation, Christian theology generally agrees that all the dead will be resurrected to face a final judgment.
An omniscient God could resurrect a body that had been cremated as easily as one that had turned to dust over time after a normal burial, or as easily as he created the first human from dust.
The "flames of hell" are seen by some teologians as a metaphor for an eternal joyless existence, and "streets of gold", rather than being literal, may symbolize the beauty, serenity, and perfection of heaven.
bobcat
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northern Calif
I guess the hard part to understand would be this:
If Hell means just being dead, and if you're already dead, then why resurrect someone only to let them die after judgment.
If Hell means a fiery death, then you have already done that if you're cremated, so why repeat it.
If Hell means an eternal torment, what would be the point. There is nothing to be gained from tormenting people forever.
If Hell means an eternal separation from God, then dead sinners already have that.
So, as you can see, it gets a bit confusing.
People are egotistical enough to believe that they, imperfect beings, actually know GOD, a perfect being. Most people know OF God, through teachings, study of theology, but how can anyone actually say they know GOD – we don’t really even know our very best friend. All we know are concepts taught to us and these concepts come from man and his slant on what we should believe.
If you really want to know GOD, then go out in nature, study and observe, give up all the ridiculous things we are all attached to (money being the worst). Reset your life and then maybe you will know some of God. I do believe that something exists beyond this life. Whether there is one God or many Gods, doesn’t matter. What matters is that we ascend spiritually as much as we can while living on this earth.
If you really want to know GOD, then go out in nature, study and observe, give up all the ridiculous things we are all attached to (money being the worst). Reset your life and then maybe you will know some of God. I do believe that something exists beyond this life. Whether there is one God or many Gods, doesn’t matter. What matters is that we ascend spiritually as much as we can while living on this earth.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
I directly responded to a post. I also mentioned that a God is unfalsifiable. But that cuts both ways. On the one hand, it doesn't mean he does exist. On the other, it doesn't means he does. Which side of the fence you fall is up to you. Such a statement renders belief in line with an opinion. Your opinion is either that he does, or does not, exist.
I'm not a religious scholar (by a wide mark). However, the idea that a God would in any way punish someone for not believing just sounds mean. God will have been well aware of the circumstances of ones life, so ought to be able to understand why belief doesn't exist. God has never spoken to me, but the trope seems to be that it must somehow be MY fault. How come? If God proved himself to me, I'd believe. Wouldn't any rationale person? I've simply seen no evidence.
I also don't think the excuses made are reasonable. Free will seems to simply be an excuse believers use to excuse the fact that their God appears mean spirited. If something goes wrong, it can't possibly be God's fault. Must be that whole "free will" thing. Free Will Is a Get out of Jail Free card, imo.
I won't even start with the idea we're all born with the original sin.
All that said - I've no issue with your own belief. I don't think less of you, and I don't think more. I simply think you're entitled to that opinion.
bobcat
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northern Calif
Agreed. I have enjoyed many aspects of Ecospirituality. It is allowing the mind to sync up with nature in a meditative state. Quite an experience.
MACKTEXAS
Well-known Member
Bobcat, if I present a certain theological explanation for one question, I get 4 more questios (as seen from your list above). I'm not criticising you, because they are legitimate questions, but I didn't "make the rules," (if you will) nor do I have all the answers to Bible questions, and never claimed to.
But as to this part you wrote: "If Hell means an eternal separation from God, then dead sinners already have that" - yes - some Christians believe that death forever is solely what the Bible means by eternal separation from God. That isn't to say I either agree or disagree with them.
I could spend an hour or two looking into all those questions, then compose a new post, which would invariably lead to more questions - if not from you, from others. I choose not to spend endless amounts of my time in that manner, since I don't recall any examples where subjects of this nature get resolved with ongoing debate - either among members of this forum, or members of the Christian community as a whole.
WheatenLover
Well-known Member
- Location
- Georgia
Ever since I was a child, I've wondered if heaven is boring. When very young, I thought dead people became angels (theologically unsound) and sat on clouds all the time (very wettifying), singing hymns. I don't know where I got that idea, since the only church my sister and I attended was in my bedroom on Sunday mornings, with a children's Bible, a project that didn't last long. We did go to Sunday school three times once. Coloring pictures... listening to boring speech, not my thing.
And what about perfection? Isn't that in the eye of the beholder? To me, heaven would be perfect if they had dancing music and dancing, books and reading, many baked goods and eating, many dogs and reveling, and many people to get to know. Also, it could not always be serene, with the music, dogs, and people. Plus with so much beauty right here on earth, why relocate us?
I have met many Christians who think dancing is a sin and who think most really fun music is a sin to listen to. Some books are a sin to read. Some people are a sin just to talk to! Believe it or not, I met some of these people while I was in Bible college. Turns out that I didn't like that, and did not become a missionary after all. Must point out that for a very long time, I have not agreed with the idea of being a missionary.
As for an eternal joyless existence, many folks find that here on earth. I've heard people say they don't believe in hell because it is here on earth.
MACKTEXAS
Well-known Member
No one finds all the answers, but I hope you have, or will come to peace with those thoughts. I can't imagine a Heaven that would be boring.
gruntlabor
Well-known Member
- Location
- Last Frontier, Age 83
With no formal teaching beyond Sunday school, my impressions are a little different.
1) Those who were told but would not listen are dead or will die, and will remain dead.
2) God and his angels live in the kingdom of heaven.
3) The dead who were saved will be resurrected to live on the earth with the living faithful.
** Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. --Matthew 5:5 **
Nathan
SF VIP
- Location
- High Desert- Calif.
Just a reminder: even though you think you know, you really don't. But, whatever gives you comfort in the here-and-now can't be discounted.
MarkD
Keeper of the Hounds & Garden
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
A Monist can answer that God is all there is throughout the cosmos and in us. To someone with an analytic bent (that used to be me) that won’t do at all. They need parts to work out simple causes and effects. Nothing wrong with that and materialism is just another monism. Materialism works great with science
but you can never give an adequate account of consciousness with nothing but matter.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
I recommend you look up George Bernard Shaw's 3 act play "Man and Superman". The second act revolves around Don Juan, a woman he had seduced, and her father, all of whom have died and found themselves in Hell. Which of them is elevated to Heaven is counter intuitive. Startling as it seems, it does make sense in a perverse kind of way.
And yes, Shaw posits that Heaven is indeed boring and most people are happier with all of their friends in "the place below".
bobcat
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northern Calif
I understand Mack, and yes there are many unanswered questions. However, I appreciate your honesty here and will respect the desire to abstain. You're a gentleman, as always.
JustDave
Well-known Member
My grandmother who lived upstairs taught me about God when I was still learning to talk. She said that in heaven you sing praises to god all day long while sitting on benches of gold, and she was ecstatic about it. I sounded boring to me, but it was better than the alternative of being constantly whipped by the Devil, as he forced you to stand in flames and feed coal to a furnace while everyone was sad and crying.
She had indoctrinated my dad and my uncle, but my mother stepped in and decided such morbid teachings were not appropriate, and my immediate family became Lutherans, which wasn't as scary, but still boring.
In Sunday school, I was intrigued by the felt board, which the teacher used to tell us Bible stories, but one time, I realized that she was using the same felt figure to represent Moses that she had been using to represent Joseph. That was somewhat upsetting to me. I knew where that felt board was stored, and I always wanted to play with it, and see if I could find a different figure for Moses, but we were given strict instructions not to play with the felt board. So I learned early on that the best things about life were often "no nos", and the good things were boring.
Later as my logic developed, I struggled for many years trying to believe, but eventually threw in the towel when I accepted that you can never know about God. You had to settle for believing which was not even in the same ball park with knowing. It's more practical to settle for not knowing than it is driving yourself berserk deciding whether or not you should believe something without any credible evidence.
bobcat
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northern Calif
Reminds me of a thread I did a couple years back, inquiring whether a person could believe something willfully without evidence.
Could you willfully believe something if there was a significant reward in it?
It would seem that if there was an absence of evidence, and you desired to believe something because it offered comfort or security, then confirmation bias should be able to sway you. However, many felt it doesn't work that way.
I think evidence of some sort is always there on either side of the camp, it's just a question of whether it rises to the level of being valid or relevant in your mind. Maybe it just needs a little push, IDK.
MACKTEXAS
Well-known Member
Thanks for your courtesy Bob. There are many other subjects we agree on and I appreciate your views. A gentleman? That's a high compliment because I have to work on my behavior a lot.
Yes, many believe that way. I have been visited recently by Jehovah's Witness members who expressed the same points you listed, except for #2 - in addition to God and his angels, they believe a select group of 144,000 souls will be in heaven. The rest of the redeemed will be resurrected to live in a new earth. Their belief is different from mine, but I am familiar with how they reconcile their key points to various scriptures.
JustDave
Well-known Member
A belief can be paramount in a person's mind. The next step is to gather together anything that they believe supports it, whether it actually supports it or not. They just need to believe it supports it. Alternative explanations are rejected if they don't feed the belief. Belief then gets confused with knowledge, and it feels like closure. It's not really willful. It's just sloppy processing. Although it could be wilful in some cases.
The Bible emphasizes that understanding spiritual truths often requires faith. For instance, 1 Corinthians 2:14 states that "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
This to me was the KEY to my struggles with understanding the Bible. I read that verse over and over and over. Then I had to look deep
within to see how strong my faith really was. No one could do this except myself, no minister, no writer, no therapist,
I realized for me firstly I had to know what the 10 Commandments truly covered and not take them as the simple phrases that they were. I prayed for finding the way I could absorb them and apply them fully.
I was just setting up my classroom in a new school and had to make a poster of my Classroom rules. Every other classroom had a list
of at least 10-20 Do and Do Nots on them. Mine came up with 1. Be Safe, 2. Be Honest, 3. Be kind. I had to laugh because I immediately
knew why it was so simple, so pure "Because everything a child can and will do is involved with one or more of those things.
Johnny grabs a toy from Billy, Billy grabs it back, Johnny pushes Billy, both say the other started it.
I sit both down and ask both...grabbing the toy- was that kind? (#3 broken) Pushing - was that safe? (#1 broken) Which one really started it -
(#2 broken)
Simple phrases are easier to remember than paragraphs and lists. Making them see the answer makes them think.
I look at the 10 Commandments as THE most important section to know and understand and realize everything that falls
under any given Commandment. Many people take them too literally is my belief, so they stretch their faults out of being under
one of them.
I took this lesson in simple rules that just flooded out of me as the answer to my prayer in a way I COULD understand. My sister
would not have come to the same reasoning.
This helped me achieve a deeper essence of my faith and I began to understand the bible, in MY way, much much clearer. I can't
pull up a verse on demand. I speak common every day language and hope I can pass it along to others.
This to me was the KEY to my struggles with understanding the Bible. I read that verse over and over and over. Then I had to look deep
within to see how strong my faith really was. No one could do this except myself, no minister, no writer, no therapist,
I realized for me firstly I had to know what the 10 Commandments truly covered and not take them as the simple phrases that they were. I prayed for finding the way I could absorb them and apply them fully.
I was just setting up my classroom in a new school and had to make a poster of my Classroom rules. Every other classroom had a list
of at least 10-20 Do and Do Nots on them. Mine came up with 1. Be Safe, 2. Be Honest, 3. Be kind. I had to laugh because I immediately
knew why it was so simple, so pure "Because everything a child can and will do is involved with one or more of those things.
Johnny grabs a toy from Billy, Billy grabs it back, Johnny pushes Billy, both say the other started it.
I sit both down and ask both...grabbing the toy- was that kind? (#3 broken) Pushing - was that safe? (#1 broken) Which one really started it -
(#2 broken)
Simple phrases are easier to remember than paragraphs and lists. Making them see the answer makes them think.
I look at the 10 Commandments as THE most important section to know and understand and realize everything that falls
under any given Commandment. Many people take them too literally is my belief, so they stretch their faults out of being under
one of them.
I took this lesson in simple rules that just flooded out of me as the answer to my prayer in a way I COULD understand. My sister
would not have come to the same reasoning.
This helped me achieve a deeper essence of my faith and I began to understand the bible, in MY way, much much clearer. I can't
pull up a verse on demand. I speak common every day language and hope I can pass it along to others.
gruntlabor
Well-known Member
- Location
- Last Frontier, Age 83
Many people seem incapable of things of the spirit, but isn't love a spiritual feeling?
We don't need to be believers to be spiritual, as for example Carl Sagan, Steven Hawking, Einstein --just a little awe and respect for nature, the universe, the unknown is a good start.