Immigrants wanting to enter illegally?

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Nathan said:
Thank you!

The U.S. economy needs an underclass of workers who are under some kind of duress to work low wage, menial jobs and be afraid to complain. The politicians could have figured out how to create a rational and effective immigration policy at any time in the last 60 years, but have chosen NOT to do so. Why? Well don't ask me, write your Congressional representatives and ask them "why".
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Nathan, you think maybe Big Agriculture could have something to do with it? 😁
 

Lewkat said:
I did not in any way render permission to you to feel insulted. I cannot for the life of me how you extrapolated that from what I wrote. I did say, if you chose to be insulted, so be it. I neither can stop you from being so nor tell you that you must be.

Listen Aneeda, I, in no way can empathize with these people since I've not had their problems, but I definitely do sympathize with their plight. That does not mean that I condone them breaking the law of our land. I've witnessed many terrible injustices in my long lifetime and when I knew that was wrong I did something about it. In essence, I am what is called an anti-federalist, so that when a Constitution was finally framed to meet the needs of the land along with the Bill of Rights, I then became a federalist and staunchly will defend those sacred laws to the death. I have zero tolerance for anyone who ignores same. I am not talking about minor infractions, but real felonies.


In your case, again, this is a matter of how did the baby come to be here illegally, and why was he sent back so cavalierly?

Those of us born in America hit the greatest lotto ever dealt by our Creator, for sure. I believe in helping the downtrodden and have on many occasions, but don't even try to convince me that folks attempting to walk into this country undocumented deserve to be excused. And I am speaking of those from all nations who try this. One other thing that galls me, if someone has the money, he/she will get in here without proper documentation. That is just a rotten realism and unfair all around.

As for your experience, I am sorry you went through that. And don't worry, I don't dislike or unfriend and ignore folks just because we have different opinions and see the world through different eyes.
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I guess I want everyone to see the people and the children, especially, that are being harmed by the refusal of our country to “allow” immigrants a fast and reasonable path to citizenship while using those same immigrants, and their children, to pick our fields for slave wages while living in inhumane conditions.

Then, when we are finished with their services, we shove them back across the border, eat the bounty of their efforts, and never give them a second thought. It is wrong. It has always been wrong. It continues today.

When I had my landscaping done at my last house, I was asked do you want to use the documented Hispanic crew or the undocumented one? 😮🙄. The undocumented one was cheaper. I used the documented crew. I was sad to do so, but I could not support human bondage, and IMO, since the other crew was not paid the same, it was a bondage situation.
 
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Lewkat said:
I did not in any way render permission to you to feel insulted. I cannot for the life of me how you extrapolated that from what I wrote. I did say, if you chose to be insulted, so be it. I neither can stop you from being so nor tell you that you must be.

Listen Aneeda, I, in no way can empathize with these people since I've not had their problems, but I definitely do sympathize with their plight. That does not mean that I condone them breaking the law of our land. I've witnessed many terrible injustices in my long lifetime and when I knew that was wrong I did something about it. In essence, I am what is called an anti-federalist, so that when a Constitution was finally framed to meet the needs of the land along with the Bill of Rights, I then became a federalist and staunchly will defend those sacred laws to the death. I have zero tolerance for anyone who ignores same. I am not talking about minor infractions, but real felonies.


In your case, again, this is a matter of how did the baby come to be here illegally, and why was he sent back so cavalierly?

Those of us born in America hit the greatest lotto ever dealt by our Creator, for sure. I believe in helping the downtrodden and have on many occasions, but don't even try to convince me that folks attempting to walk into this country undocumented deserve to be excused. And I am speaking of those from all nations who try this. One other thing that galls me, if someone has the money, he/she will get in here without proper documentation. That is just a rotten realism and unfair all around.

As for your experience, I am sorry you went through that. And don't worry, I don't dislike or unfriend and ignore folks just because we have different opinions and see the world through different eyes.
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Forgot to respond about the baby. This was decades ago and I lived in Orange County, California. The mother came across illegally which was still dangerous, but safer than now. The baby was removed as the mother had left and the relatives could not care for him.

His eyes were crossed so all he could see was his nose. (Both my adopted sons had this condition and we had corrective surgery for them). The baby was profoundly mentally retarded but like all DS kids a happy, happy guy. He also need open heart surgery. He was given California medicaid at the time. Before he could have his surgeries and he was removed and returned to Mexico. I was not told why.

The 12 year old my daughter had that was returned, was returned because the social worker had missed certain dates to file certain paperwork. This failure made that child ineligible for adoption (my daughter wanted to adopt her), make her illegal, and she was returned to Mexico.

It was such a screw up. My daughter quit foster care over it.
 

C'est Moi said:
Who is this "we" you speak of? The British? The French? The Spanish? In case you have forgotten history, that's the way it worked back then. The countries/empires with the biggest armies took the lands they wanted. So tell it to someone who doesn't understand how this all came to be.
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Talking about us Americans in our westward expansion. Ever hear about the Trail of Tears, and such?
 
MarciKS said:
Well my question is this...what happens when we have too many immigrants and there's not enough jobs for us to take care of ourselves? Then what? At some point the population is gonna go bust.
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I live in an area of the country that has a lot of undocumented immigrant workers. Those I see are not taking jobs from Americans, they are doing jobs Americans won't do, like working long hours in our blazing sun at the backbreaking job of picking chile and other produce.
 
jerry old said:
Question-When the parent's drop off the kids at the border and split-where do they go: they assume the U S A will do
something with these children-would you drop off your children hoping they are cared for?

The 'dreamers' are older, able to understand, their dreams are not yet extinguished.

WE have Laws, other's obey them, how do the Mexican's get a free 'get out of jail' card?

It's just a damn mess, heartbreaking, but, but why should they, as illegals'' be treated any different because their children?

Were I a mexican national, you can bet- I too would be an illegal-it is wrong, but I would do it.

It's just a damn mess! a damn mess! you want to be the one that sends these kids back?
A mess, i say, a damn mess.
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Most of the DACA folks came here as small children with their parents and this is the only home they've ever known. It wasn't their wrongdoing when they crossed the border illegally. They have to have been under the age of 31 in 2012, came to the US before they were 16, and have lived in the country continuously since 2007. Most of them are grown now and most are in schools or colleges or have jobs and are contributing members of our society. A fair number of them are doctors and nurses. To qualify, they must be in schools or working, have graduated high school or have a GED, or have been discharged honorably in the US armed forces, and have not been convicted of a felony or serious misdemeanor, and are not deemed to be a threat to national security.

This is a discrete pool of folks who have to meet the residence since 2007, age and dates of entry requirements, and more cannot come in under those conditions because those dates are past, so it's not like a neverending stream.

Most of them have nowhere to go back to where they have any ties or family and a great many of them speak only English and, except for their birthplace, most of them are as American as you or I.

IMHO, just because their parents brought them here as little kids or babies, to dump them in the middle of, say, Guatemala or somewhere where they have no ties or cultural history or language is unconscionable. And what's the point of doing that? What good does that do for America?
 
CarolfromTX said:
What you fail to see is that many of these minors are being trafficked and will wind up in prostitution or porn. Hardly an opportunity for a better life.

i have to have a passport even to travel to Canada. Immigration law applies to me. Why shouldn’t it apply to someone from Guatemala?
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Here in Canada, as a child, my mother rented me out to various paedophiles. Nice safe middle class family? I wasn’t the only one in that stable. I was fortunate to only be a part time slave. The others couldn’t leave. This evil is everywhere. Can happen to anyone.
 
Butterfly said:
I live in an area of the country that has a lot of undocumented immigrant workers. Those I see are not taking jobs from Americans, they are doing jobs Americans won't do, like working long hours in our blazing sun at the backbreaking job of picking chile and other produce.
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Exactly, Butterfly. As I've been trying to say in this thread. This is a well-known fact, usually ignored or brushed aside by those who don't want to hear it. They are doing the work that most Americans don't want to do!!!!

If jobs picking crops, cleaning bathrooms, and doing landscaping work in all sorts of weather were in such short supply, with heavy competition to get one of those wonderful jobs, why would these people be risking life and limb in the hope that they'll get one? They'd stay where they are, instead of taking desperate measures to get here.

C'est Moi,
"What you fail to see is that many of these minors are being trafficked and will wind up in prostitution or porn. Hardly an opportunity for a better life."

Um, where did this insane idea come from? Is this the infamous "minors being trafficked in pizza parlors" lie? We can't prove that they are taking ANY jobs away from Americans, so let's spread a rumor about using kids for prostitution?

If there were any truth to this, it would be splashed all over every newspaper in America, and we'd be hearing about it endlessly on CNN and the other news channels.

Yes, there is prostitution, and there is abuse of kids. So what else is new? Why tie these crimes to the immigrants? Sounds a lot more like a Mafia thing than an immigrant thing, to me.

If you have any proof of these allegations against the immigrants, please show us some.
 
Sunny said:
Exactly, Butterfly. As I've been trying to say in this thread. This is a well-known fact, usually ignored or brushed aside by those who don't want to hear it. They are doing the work that most Americans don't want to do!!!!

If jobs picking crops, cleaning bathrooms, and doing landscaping work in all sorts of weather were in such short supply, with heavy competition to get one of those wonderful jobs, why would these people be risking life and limb in the hope that they'll get one? They'd stay where they are, instead of taking desperate measures to get here.

C'est Moi,
"What you fail to see is that many of these minors are being trafficked and will wind up in prostitution or porn. Hardly an opportunity for a better life."

Um, where did this insane idea come from? Is this the infamous "minors being trafficked in pizza parlors" lie? We can't prove that they are taking ANY jobs away from Americans, so let's spread a rumor about using kids for prostitution?

If there were any truth to this, it would be splashed all over every newspaper in America, and we'd be hearing about it endlessly on CNN and the other news channels.

Yes, there is prostitution, and there is abuse of kids. So what else is new? Why tie these crimes to the immigrants? Sounds a lot more like a Mafia thing than an immigrant thing, to me.

If you have any proof of these allegations against the immigrants, please show us some.
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I'll agree, of course, that human trafficking exists. However, we were talking about the DACA group, and almost universally these folks are people who were brought as children into the country by their own parents and whose families lived here under the radar for years. They were the children of the guy who cut your lawn or worked in some kitchen or a whole buncha other sorta invisible jobs. Now the kids are growing/have grown up, having lived most of their lives here and they want to go on being contributing members of society.
 
Agreed. When I said that yes, prostitution exists, etc., I did not mean among the immigrants (any more than among anybody else.) The only accusations I have heard along those lines were obviously political, and we can't bring this discussion over there.

If there is any evidence that this is true, I'd like to see what the source is. As I said, it would be pretty big news, and we'd be bombarded with it.
 
Sunny said:
Exactly, Butterfly. As I've been trying to say in this thread. This is a well-known fact, usually ignored or brushed aside by those who don't want to hear it. They are doing the work that most Americans don't want to do!!!!

If jobs picking crops, cleaning bathrooms, and doing landscaping work in all sorts of weather were in such short supply, with heavy competition to get one of those wonderful jobs, why would these people be risking life and limb in the hope that they'll get one? They'd stay where they are, instead of taking desperate measures to get here.

C'est Moi,
"What you fail to see is that many of these minors are being trafficked and will wind up in prostitution or porn. Hardly an opportunity for a better life."

Um, where did this insane idea come from? Is this the infamous "minors being trafficked in pizza parlors" lie? We can't prove that they are taking ANY jobs away from Americans, so let's spread a rumor about using kids for prostitution?

If there were any truth to this, it would be splashed all over every newspaper in America, and we'd be hearing about it endlessly on CNN and the other news channels.

Yes, there is prostitution, and there is abuse of kids. So what else is new? Why tie these crimes to the immigrants? Sounds a lot more like a Mafia thing than an immigrant thing, to me.

If you have any proof of these allegations against the immigrants, please show us some.
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In your rush to virtue signal, you have obviously mixed up some posts. I'm not going to reread this thread for you, but I never said anything about "prostitution or porn", so don't be attributing someone else's words to me.

As for the menial jobs, there are GREEN CARDS available for anyone wanting to work in the USA LEGALLY.

And I am done with this thread. It's a pointless exercise for people whose minds are already made up.
 
C'est Moi said:
In your rush to virtue signal, you have obviously mixed up some posts. I'm not going to reread this thread for you, but I never said anything about "prostitution or porn", so don't be attributing someone else's words to me.

As for the menial jobs, there are GREEN CARDS available for anyone wanting to work in the USA LEGALLY.

And I am done with this thread. It's a pointless exercise for people whose minds are already made up.
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Green cards are for legal permanent residence. Do you have any idea of the requirements and the red tape and expense involved in someone's getting a green card? The fees alone are over $1,200, and they take around 3 years to process. You can't even apply for a green card if you've entered the country illegally.

What we need is some kind of simple visa or something to allow migrant farm workers and others to come and go into the country legally to do things like pick crops, etc. Because without those migrant farm workers, crops would rot in the fields in many places.
 
Butterfly said:
Green cards are for legal permanent residence. Do you have any idea of the requirements and the red tape and expense involved in someone's getting a green card? The fees alone are over $1,200, and they take around 3 years to process. You can't even apply for a green card if you've entered the country illegally.

What we need is some kind of simple visa or something to allow migrant farm workers and others to come and go into the country legally to do things like pick crops, etc. Because without those migrant farm workers, crops would rot in the fields in many places.
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Yup cause us hungry unemployed spoiled rotten Americans, for the most, part will let them rot in the fields rather than pick them.
 
Sunny said:
Exactly, Butterfly. As I've been trying to say in this thread. This is a well-known fact, usually ignored or brushed aside by those who don't want to hear it. They are doing the work that most Americans don't want to do!!!!

If jobs picking crops, cleaning bathrooms, and doing landscaping work in all sorts of weather were in such short supply, with heavy competition to get one of those wonderful jobs, why would these people be risking life and limb in the hope that they'll get one? They'd stay where they are, instead of taking desperate measures to get here.

C'est Moi,
"What you fail to see is that many of these minors are being trafficked and will wind up in prostitution or porn. Hardly an opportunity for a better life."

Um, where did this insane idea come from? Is this the infamous "minors being trafficked in pizza parlors" lie? We can't prove that they are taking ANY jobs away from Americans, so let's spread a rumor about using kids for prostitution?

If there were any truth to this, it would be splashed all over every newspaper in America, and we'd be hearing about it endlessly on CNN and the other news channels.

Yes, there is prostitution, and there is abuse of kids. So what else is new? Why tie these crimes to the immigrants? Sounds a lot more like a Mafia thing than an immigrant thing, to me.

If you have any proof of these allegations against the immigrants, please show us some.
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No one is saying that these are wonderful jobs.

But cleaning bathrooms would be less awful if it paid $20 per hour instead of $10 per hour.

However, an oversupply of unskilled, non-English speaking people willing to do this work for $10 per hour virtually ensures that the wage for such work will not go up to $20 per hour.

This is basic economics, the law of supply and demand. An oversupply of labor drives wages down.

That is all I'm saying. I have a lot of regard for the character and work ethic of people willing to do these jobs. I think that a lot of business owners prefer hiring illegal workers, not only because they work for less but because they work hard.

People complain that wages for unskilled workers haven't gone up in real terms for 40 years. But that stagnation coincides with the arrival of millions of undocumented, unskilled workers here. It's cause and effect.
 
Nathan said:
Thank you!

The U.S. economy needs an underclass of workers who are under some kind of duress to work low wage, menial jobs and be afraid to complain. The politicians could have figured out how to create a rational and effective immigration policy at any time in the last 60 years, but have chosen NOT to do so. Why? Well don't ask me, write your Congressional representatives and ask them "why".
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You make a good point. US employers benefit from cheap labor. So do consumers. That doesn't mean we should let people stream across the border.

I think we should emulate Canada. Canada has virtually no illegal immigrants, and doesn't need border fences. That's because anybody entering Canada illegally has absolutely no access to any sort of government services. That means schools, drivers' licenses, health care, you name it. It's a cheap and very effective way to keep people out.

With immigration policy fixed, we could do three things:

1) Expand and improve pathways for legal immigration, including asylum;

2) Come up with a humane and rational way to "citizenize" people already here; and

3) Provide better pay and working conditions for people doing the jobs "Americans won't do".
 
JimBob1952 said:
It's not just Big Agriculture, it's the contractor who picks up bunch of undocumented guys in the Home Depot parking lot for a day's work.
Also meatpackers, fast food, many others.
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For Sure. Our area has lots of chicken/turkey farms, and there is a huge processing plant in a town about 30 miles away. If you go to the Walmart there in the evenings, or weekends, you almost feel like you have suddenly been transported to Mexico....90% of the customers babbling in Spanish.
 
Why would an employer want to hire someone for $20 an hr when he could get someone for $10 an hr? Hence the taking our jobs remark. Perhaps this is what is also keeping wages low enough it's hard to get by.
 
Don M. said:
For Sure. Our area has lots of chicken/turkey farms, and there is a huge processing plant in a town about 30 miles away. If you go to the Walmart there in the evenings, or weekends, you almost feel like you have suddenly been transported to Mexico....90% of the customers babbling in Spanish.
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"Babbling?" Folks speaking Spanish are "babbling?" Would it be "babbling" if they were speaking in German or French or Italian?
 
MarciKS said:
Why would an employer want to hire someone for $20 an hr when he could get someone for $10 an hr? Hence the taking our jobs remark. Perhaps this is what is also keeping wages low enough it's hard to get by.
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Pickers are not paid by the hour.

But suppose they were. Would you pick cotton for 20 an hour?-or strawberries, or tomatoes or any other crop in 100 plus weather for months? With no job during the winter months, no health insurance, no schooling for your children, and traveling from field to field, farm to farm for months.

You will live in a run down shack, or your car, or an old RV, or a transit motel. Your children will work in the fields with you, baby tied on your back. You will use an outdoor potty. No showers for the most part. You will buy your food from the company store.

I could go on and go. Educate yourself on the plight of transitory workers, so we can have a realistic conversation.
 

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