Shooting in Vegas

[tnthomas]

So, people ask "why" did this guy do what he did. It's been reported that:

The father, Benjamin Paddock, was a convicted bank robber who was on the FBI's Most Wanted list in 1969 and described as a suicidal psychopath.

Might not have had such a warm & fuzzy upbringing, or maybe he picked up some of his pappy's genes.

I can't help but recall the University of Texas tower shooting, where Charles Whitman shot and killed 15 people including one unborn child and injured 31 others.

Whether not not the brain tumor that Charles Whitman had played any role in precipitating his deadly shooting spree, is still a matter of contention.

 

[Smiling Jane]

Thanks Jane, you saw it and it was real. How odd they felt his case had no merit unless there was no actual injury.

The report I watched said he had been treated for injuries and there were medical expenses involved. It didn't go into any detail so I don't know anything beyond that.

The reason people dislike binding arbitration clauses in contracts is that arbitration is not a fair and open process. If you were suing a wealthy corporation that hired an arbitrator to judge your case, how much weight would automatically fall on the side of the company that is paying the arbitrator? There's enough prejudice against an individual suing a corporation in a regular court; arbitration is far worse.

 

[Big Horn]

And why were discipline by teachers taken from the US schools from grades to universities. Why are we no longer allowed to make sure the kids do get trained in discipline and fairness as they once were. Should we just end out public school system and make it all private and away from the minds of the no discipline folks.

That's my opinion. Graduates of private schools and home schools simply receive a better education. Requirements are far more demanding and teachers teach real academic material. I attended private schools from grammar schools to university. Discipline was never an issue because as soon as they were old enough, students were treated as adults and responded as adults. Younger children were never exposed to classroom anarchy.

 

[Butterfly]

That's my opinion. Graduates of private schools and home schools simply receive a better education. Requirements are far more demanding and teachers teach real academic material. I attended private schools from grammar schools to university. Discipline was never an issue because as soon as they were old enough, students were treated as adults and responded as adults. Younger children were never exposed to classroom anarchy.

I tend to agree, though I don't want to sound like another old lady complaining about the younger generation. There appears to be no discipline at all taught to children anymore, and the fault is as much in the home as in the schools. I personally know three teachers who quit teaching because they were actually afraid of some of their students (and their parents). I live fairly close to a middle school, and the language I hear when passing the schoolground would make the proverbial sailor blush. And we have younger and younger children committing worse and worse crimes. Last week here a group of 12 and 13 year olds carjacked a woman and drove the car out of state because they wanted to run away together. We have teenagers killing one another right and left. Scary stuff. There seems to be no respect for others, or empathy, or self-respect or any kind of discipline at all being taught to many children nowdays.

 

[dpwspringer]

I tend to agree, though I don't want to sound like another old lady complaining about the younger generation. There appears to be no discipline at all taught to children anymore, and the fault is as much in the home as in the schools. I personally know three teachers who quit teaching because they were actually afraid of some of their students (and their parents). I live fairly close to a middle school, and the language I hear when passing the schoolground would make the proverbial sailor blush. And we have younger and younger children committing worse and worse crimes. Last week here a group of 12 and 13 year olds carjacked a woman and drove the car out of state because they wanted to run away together. We have teenagers killing one another right and left. Scary stuff. There seems to be no respect for others, or empathy, or self-respect or any kind of discipline at all being taught to many children nowdays.

I see the same thing. Life is a whole different now that everything is more liberal and not as restrictive as back in the day. I think it goes back to freedom versus security/restrictions... or how ever you want to phrase things. Remember the censorship on over-the-air tv broadcast where a man and a woman could not be on the same bed without at least one foot on the floor? When I grew up it was like sex didn't exist and was why Heffner and his Playboy magazine was like some kind of A-bomb in the reactions it got.

 

[BobF]

I wondered the same thing, but maybe it's because he can't claim he was economically oppressed by any group or faction. So far we've been told he was a lone wolf and not affiliated with any political group, and that he was wealthy. He doesn't seem to fit any of the demographics we usually expect for terrorists. These lone shooters are scary because they are so unexpected and unpredictable.

The photos I saw of the place where he lived didn't look like a retirement village, not any that I've ever known. He lived in an individual home and it looked like all of his neighbors did too. It actually looked like a regular neighborhood.

His brother said when he helped him move in, he had maybe one or two long rifles, not that arsenal he took to the city.

Retirement villages are of many types. They are for those wanting a retired lifestyle and most that I have looked into required the owner to be at least 45 years old in order to buy in. It was looking for a more adult life style and fewer children allowed.

The least expensive were made of trailer homes and clustered into neighborhoods and with many other buildings also for crafts, hobbies, dances and meetings. I also looked into some where there were condo's or homes to purchase. The one that claimed he owned a retirement home looked like the more costly ones with private land about the house and likely also included a golf coarse and other public buildings like restaurants, hair, fitness areas, libraries.

All the ones I saw were in Arizona near Phoenix, Casa Grande, Tucson.

As we get older we end up in senior care places, but not retirement towns.

 

[BobF]

As a side note, if you wish to understand why Australians (and perhaps other nationalities) will never understand America's obsession with guns, just read this short article and pay attention to the three graphics embedded in it.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/heres-w...e-us-obsession-with-guns-20171003-gyt7ys.html

Well, there is far too much emphasis by some from other countries on why the US acts as it does. No consideration that most of those folks were always raised in monarchies and had no real way of doing things but the way the monarchs determined.

The US started out as one of those areas but soon they did come up with the 'Declaration of Independence' and the 'Constitution of the United States'. Now we have a completely different way of leading the country by putting so much power in the hands of the people. We also have much of the designed power in the states and not in the federal government.

We, the USA, is different than all the others and for reasons. We should not be asked to revert to federal controlled everything and go backwards a few hundred years.

Guns is OK in places like Switzerland but not OK in the US? What is the justification? The lack of training of the young folks as they grow up? The lack of training in our schools and universities? Too much looking away by the folks and our police and jailers? It should not take too long to re educate our people and bring real care and concern back into the lives of our young ones and return the nation back to one of sincerity, honesty, willingness to wear the uniforms and fight for the US. Maybe a return of punishment of various forms would be good incentive for some to behave. It is not the guns that is the problem. It is the people and their ways of thinking only they are important and the rest 'just need taking care of'.

I don't know but I am sure disappointed by the way our US folks do not care at all about others rights or privileges. Far too much of this hateful way of never sharing. We have the makings of a much greater nation. One where all are willing to work and never wanting to surrender to welfare. We once were that way, why not again.

 

[Camper6]

Well, there is far too much emphasis by some from other countries on why the US acts as it does. No consideration that most of those folks were always raised in monarchies and had no real way of doing things but the way the monarchs determined.

Well BobF I live next door in Canada and have family living in the U.S. so everything that happens in the U.S. is of interest.

Frankly we just are appalled at what is happening there with mass murders. It's sad to watch.

Switzerland is a different story altogether. My understanding is that military service in Switzerland is mandatory for all males of a certain age. They have the choice of keeping their rifle at home after their tour of duty is over.

They are part of the militia of Switzerland. They are on call.

Do you have a civilian militia in the United States.? You have already stated you don't like government mandates.

I'm sorry Bob but I don't think you can teach morals.

I belong to another forum and if I said there what I said here I would be jumped on from all sides and called a troll and have no business commenting on the U.S. as a foreigner. All that while touting the Freedom of Speech.

 

[Smiling Jane]

I think the concept of you're not the only one in the room with rights has to be taught before a kid goes to school. That's part of early childhood learning.

The guy who got upset because hot babes ignored him is the one who bothers me most. That has to be the epitome of the world owes me attitude. His parents spent ridiculous amounts of money keeping him in luxury cars and the right wardrobe so on some level they must have agreed he was somehow entitled and that his narcissism was deserved.

Adam Lanza could not have been a surprise to those who knew him. That he chose an elementary school as his killing field is the unbelievable part but that was probably about making a statement (whatever depraved message that might have been) and knowing there was no one there to stop him.

Kids who are bullied or belittled in high school who bring guns to settle the score are no surprise. High school kids are brutal. It's a wonder it doesn't happen more often.

I wonder if we'll ever find out the inspiration behind this latest loser. I'm kind of doubting that will ever happen.

 

[chic]

So, people ask "why" did this guy do what he did. It's been reported that:



Might not have had such a warm & fuzzy upbringing, or maybe he picked up some of his pappy's genes.

I can't help but recall the University of Texas tower shooting, where Charles Whitman shot and killed 15 people including one unborn child and injured 31 others.

Whether not not the brain tumor that Charles Whitman had played any role in precipitating his deadly shooting spree, is still a matter of contention.

I've thought of that same thing. There has been no autopsy report released to the public so I wonder if in killing himself he literally blew his own head off so we'll never know perhaps if he had a brain tumor??

 

[BobF]

Well BobF I live next door in Canada and have family living in the U.S. so everything that happens in the U.S. is of interest.

Frankly we just are appalled at what is happening there with mass murders. It's sad to watch.

Switzerland is a different story altogether. My understanding is that military service in Switzerland is mandatory for all males of a certain age. They have the choice of keeping their rifle at home after their tour of duty is over.

They are part of the militia of Switzerland. They are on call.

Do you have a civilian militia in the United States.? You have already stated you don't like government mandates.

I'm sorry Bob but I don't think you can teach morals.

I belong to another forum and if I said there what I said here I would be jumped on from all sides and called a troll and have no business commenting on the U.S. as a foreigner. All that while touting the Freedom of Speech.

Not sure where you are coming from as I considered my post to be answering a comment made by others.

Switzerland is a different story altogether. My understanding is that military service in Switzerland is mandatory for all males of a certain age. They have the choice of keeping their rifle at home after their tour of duty is over.

Until about the 1960's we also had a full draft for all services. Fill by volunteers or get some draftee's for the job. Then they changed to using only volunteers, which included national guard or reservist. We still have the sign on and possible use of draft but it just has not been used for many years now.

To me that is best for the active military as they are all volunteers and willing. But also unfair for the rest as there is no threat for drafting those not willing to volunteer. Shortage of teaching how to do as told with no bitching or grumbling. We do have women in the active military that do get to go into military areas and get shot at. My daughter was one of those volunteers and did her year plus in Iraq shortly after the first assaults were ended. When her 8 years enlistment ended she went back to civilian life style.

Hard to teach morals is true. Best way is to have to live with morals but little of that going on these days in the US. We have loosened up all of our laws on drugs, drinking, living styles. We have old time crime groups re emerging in our political world and nothing done by courts to get them to settle down at all. Criminals leading our political parties from inside and outside. How can these groups have riots with the police, burn cars, trash out buildings, and use these protests to demonstrate against legally elected government officials and not get punished. We have courts that are gutless and see no crimes.

The US has plenty of problems to work out. And as long as we have people that do not care about the Constitution, our 'flag', the 'national anthem',
loyalties to their heritage or the country in general; we have plenty to work out yet.

 

[SifuPhil]

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Are you familiar with Glasgow?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ry-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/most-dangerous-cities-in-europe.html

This is from one of your quoted sources:

The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.

​

Canada has more than TWICE the number of violent crimes per 100k as the U.S.?

I highly doubt those figures.

 

[Camper6]

This is from one of your quoted sources:



Canada has more than TWICE the number of violent crimes per 100k as the U.S.?

I highly doubt those figures.

Statistics.? Let's put it this way. You count the entire population? Children? People in jail, etc. and come up with a number?

I have another way of doing it.

Count only the male population age 15 to 50. Then do a comparison. Then you might have a significant meaningful number.

 

[SifuPhil]

Massaging stats has always been a favorite activity for people trying to make a point, much more so now with the advent of the 'Net.

... at least, that's what 20 out of 10 Americans think ...

 

[Butterfly]

I think the concept of you're not the only one in the room with rights has to be taught before a kid goes to school. That's part of early childhood learning.

The guy who got upset because hot babes ignored him is the one who bothers me most. That has to be the epitome of the world owes me attitude. His parents spent ridiculous amounts of money keeping him in luxury cars and the right wardrobe so on some level they must have agreed he was somehow entitled and that his narcissism was deserved.

Adam Lanza could not have been a surprise to those who knew him. That he chose an elementary school as his killing field is the unbelievable part but that was probably about making a statement (whatever depraved message that might have been) and knowing there was no one there to stop him.

Kids who are bullied or belittled in high school who bring guns to settle the score are no surprise. High school kids are brutal. It's a wonder it doesn't happen more often.

I wonder if we'll ever find out the inspiration behind this latest loser. I'm kind of doubting that will ever happen.

I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head with your "not the only one in the room with rights" statement. I think it actually is the basis of having a "civilized" society.

I got this message loud and clear from an early age, though not in those precise words. It's a concept that needs to be taught again, loud and clear. Another one that seems to have fallen through the cracks is "the universe does not revolve around you." And, one of my mother's favorites, "who ever told you the world is fair?"

 

[Warrigal]

I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head with your "not the only one in the room with rights" statement. I think it actually is the basis of having a "civilized" society.

I got this message loud and clear from an early age, though not in those precise words. It's a concept that needs to be taught again, loud and clear. Another one that seems to have fallen through the cracks is "the universe does not revolve around you." And, one of my mother's favorites, "who ever told you the world is fair?"

"The universe does not revolve around you" is a good one. I remember something similar being said about a young woman along the lines of "She was in need of a Copernican revolution".

I instilled into my children that they were important but not more important than other people.

 

[Smiling Jane]

Charles Whitman had an important brain anomaly. The two hemispheres of his brain were not connected, not unheard of but quite rare. For a time researchers wondered if that led to his single act of violence, but they later determined it was not a cause.

He was probably more like the Vegas shooter than the others because no one who knew him expected him to do what he did. By all accounts, he was a pleasant, mild-mannered young man. Not sure the pleasant mild-mannered part applied to Stephen Paddock, but his girl friend is claiming he treated her well. There have been conflicting reports from people who saw him being verbally abusive to her, but that's all part of what will come out as the investigation continues.

 

[Camper6]

Here's the thinking now.

They are trying to find something wrong with Stephen Paddock because they cannot believe, he's just your average type of guy who just likes to collect guns.

So there's no excuse for him to go on a shooting rampage.

 

[Warrigal]

I agree with Camper. There is a certain desperation in the search for a reason for this and other massacres that is not a function of virtual unlimited access to as many high powered guns as the perp can afford. Any collector could be another Paddock waiting in the wings.

It appears that there are some people for whom the ultimate high is hunting human beings. Some do it in a forest, or the Australian outback and, with increasing frequency, some do it is a crowded public place where targets are plentiful.

My mind is full of questions for which I can find no satisfactory answers.

Why is it still legal to buy an unlimited number of guns?
Why is there no national register to see who is amassing an arsenal?
Why is the right to own a gun more important to the right to life?
Why don't people want to talk about this very serious development that was not this bad just 50 years ago?
Has it not occurred to anyone that in another 50 years things will be even worse.

 

[Smiling Jane]

I agree with Camper. There is a certain desperation in the search for a reason for this and other massacres that is not a function of virtual unlimited access to as many high powered guns as the perp can afford. Any collector could be another Paddock waiting in the wings.

It appears that there are some people for whom the ultimate high is hunting human beings. Some do it in a forest, or the Australian outback and, with increasing frequency, some do it is a crowded public place where targets are plentiful.

My mind is full of questions for which I can find no satisfactory answers.

Why is it still legal to buy an unlimited number of guns?
Why is there no national register to see who is amassing an arsenal?
Why is the right to own a gun more important to the right to life?
Why don't people want to talk about this very serious development that was not this bad just 50 years ago?
Has it not occurred to anyone that in another 50 years things will be even worse.

I don't know because the information hasn't been released so far, but it seems likely that some or most of those guns were not purchased legally. His brother and his girlfriend both said they didn't even know he had an arsenal. It's unfortunate, but there are gun sellers who, for a price, will sell you anything you want to buy. That covers your first two questions. Illegal gun sales are not recorded so no way to monitor them.

As for the third, right to life only refers to the unborn.

I think we all know this is a rapidly deteriorating situation that will only get worse. What we don't know is what to do about it.

As for the ultimate high, killing humans, that was the mentality in our local police department that brought in the Department of Justice who are now overseeing police hiring, training and retraining programs. They're trying to weed out those who joined the force to kill people. I've pretty much heard everything but I was shocked a few years ago when a group of my male hospital co-workers were talking about the son of one of the doctors graduating from the Police Academy. Proud papa said Junior could not wait to make his first kill. When my jaw dropped, the guys all told me that was the only reason anyone would want to join the police force. Fast-forward a few years and the DOJ finally noticed how many of the city's most vulnerable, i.e. the homeless, were being killed routinely by police officers. Heck, one of our finest was shot several times by another police officer while he sat in the front seat of a police car, so it definitely wasn't a case of mistaken identity. The cop survived, but true to the police department's tradition of transparency, the reason for the shooting was never made public who ultimately foot the bill for that mess. Everyone I know figured there was a wife or girlfriend involved but it got hushed up muy pronto.

You can't ask killers to monitor killers and not expect mayhem to ensue.

 

[Warrigal]

You can't ask killers to monitor killers and not expect mayhem to ensue.

I was thinking of "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". Is this just meaningless rhetoric?

I am horrified by the last part of your post. I do not believe that attitude is rife in the NSW Police Force. At least, I hope not.

 

[Shalimar]

Here's the thinking now.

They are trying to find something wrong with Stephen Paddock because they cannot believe, he's just your average type of guy who just likes to collect guns.

So there's no excuse for him to go on a shooting rampage.

Some people like to kill. For them, it is the ultimate expression of power.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

My heart goes out to all those affected by this terrible happening, RIP to all the poor souls who died.
Another massacre behind you America, now we wait for the next. When will you learn? How many more of your innocent men, women and children must die before you stand tall and say enough is enough?

 

[Camper6]

I agree with Camper. There is a certain desperation in the search for a reason for this and other massacres that is not a function of virtual unlimited access to as many high powered guns as the perp can afford. Any collector could be another Paddock waiting in the wings.

It appears that there are some people for whom the ultimate high is hunting human beings. Some do it in a forest, or the Australian outback and, with increasing frequency, some do it is a crowded public place where targets are plentiful.

My mind is full of questions for which I can find no satisfactory answers.

Why is it still legal to buy an unlimited number of guns?

In the U.S.? Free enterprise and no government interference.

Why is there no national register to see who is amassing an arsenal?

No government interference.

Why is the right to own a gun more important to the right to life?

The right to bear arms is imbedded in the Constitution. The right to life? Well we have abortion debated all the time. It's not in the Constitution.

Why don't people want to talk about this very serious development that was not this bad just 50 years ago?

It gets talked about constantly.

Has it not occurred to anyone that in another 50 years things will be even worse.

Can it get much worse?

 

[Sunny]

I wonder if the NRA is having its own internal debate right now. People are so horrified, terrified, grief-stricken, etc., that it's hard to believe that organization will just continue with business as usual. Are they really happy seeing this kind of insane slaughter?

I think there is a small ray of hope; they actually came out against that gizmo, I think called a stock, that boosts an ordinary gun into an assault weapon. (I know very little about guns, so I may be getting the details wrong.) We can only hope that saner heads will prevail.If not, it will become a hated terrorist organization.