What is Feminism?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Smiling Jane said:
Isn't it a shame that the unevolved tend to be so outspoken? Listen to me. Listen to me. Waaa. Waaa. Listen to me. I'm more important than you are. Listen to me.
Click to expand...


It is not about who is more important. It is about understanding that the most famous (infamous ?)of feminists are man-haters. Period !
 

Traveler, you are unarmed for a battle of wits. I've watched you do this before, where you're obviously losing the debate so you continue to get sillier and sillier and further off-track.

I'm certainly not impressed and I doubt anyone else is either.
 
If we choose to explore the writing of prominent second wave feminists we will see that they can be as critical of women as they are of men.

“Those miserable women who blame the men who let them down for their misery and isolation enact every day the initial mistake of sacrificing their personal responsibility for themselves.”
― Germaine Greer, The Female Eunuch
Click to expand...

Does this sound like a woman who hates men?

“Lovers who are free to go when they are restless always come back; lovers who are free to change remain interesting. The bitter animosity and obscenity of divorce is unknown where individuals have not become Siamese twins.”
― Germaine Greer, The Female Eunuch
Click to expand...

I am not familiar with the writings of the current crop of feminists and have not heard of all of the authors in Traveller's list. I would like them put in historical context.

Disclaimer - obviously I am not as adventurous as Germaine Greer because I have been monogamously married for 55 years but within marriage I have striven for a measure of autonomy and personal responsibility. If I had not I would not still be married. I would have given up and left.
 
Like most things in life, our views on any given subject or group, depends quite often on our personal experiences and sometimes where we live. If, for example a person lives his/her whole life in a smallish town they may view people as helpful and friendly. If, however he/she lived in New York City that same person might have an entirely different view. (no offence meant to New Yorkers).

Likewise, a woman who was sexually abused as a child and later raped in her 20's is likely to have a decidedly dim view of men. I knew such a woman and most of her male friends were gay. But a woman who was raised with a loving , kind, father and had good experiences with young men as she was maturing into a woman, is likely to have a much more positive view about men.

The same holds true of a man who has had a series of negative, emotionally hurtful, experiences with feminists is not too likely to have a shining view of feminists.

The same holds true even among animals. A dog that is repeatedly kicked can become either viscous or a broken shell of a dog who cowers every time a person approaches. Why one dog becomes viscous and the next becomes broken is unknown.

People can succeed in life spite of over-whelming obstacles and the next person with almost exactly the same obstacles just gives up, never to do well in life. I contend that the difference is how one thinks about his/her experiences. The same holds true with feminism. If a woman thinks of herself as a victim and is filled with hate, then she becomes crippled. If, however, she refuses to be a victim then she gains power.

Life is not always fair, but men, as well as women, also have gone though hell. Women are not the only ones to have had a rough go.
 
Can't ague with any of that, Traveller.

I would perhaps add that there are some genetic foundations that underpin our view the world and its inhabitants.
We are also programmed by culture to have unrealistic expectations concerning matters of the heart.
 
Shalimar said:
I still contend that there are far more differences within the sexes than between them. This becomes particularly apparent when people are emotionally broken.
Click to expand...


I have heard that said numerous times but I don't agree. I think it is just something people say to prop-up a failing attempt to demonstrate that women can do anything a man can do. Even the most casual glance at men and women it is abundantly clear that in any group of 100 men and 100 women, selected at random, the men are taller, have more muscle, and heavier bones. Women on the other hand have more body fat, less muscle and much more delicate bones.

That does not make men "better than" it just makes us different. Continuing, women, as a general rule, talk much, much more than men. I do not say that is a negative, it is just a difference. Clearly, women are better at some tasks and men are better at others.

Beneath the skin the differences are even greater. Everyone who had a basic biology class knows that men have aprox 9 times the amount of testosterone than women, and women have far more estrogen. Testosterone is the primary agent responsible for sexual drive and physical aggression. This is why boys, again speaking generally, engage in 'ruff and tumble play. It is thought that estrogen is one of the main factors in why little girls are much more likely to play well together and much more quietly than boys.

Speaking biologically,perhaps the greatest difference between males and females is the 23rd chromosome. This is the master chromosome and it controls almost everything. In an age of transgenderism, people can have drastic surgery to change their outward appearance but inside the body, a transgender man who has undergone feminizing surgery, is still, and always will --- remain a man. Moreover, no amount of feminizing surgery can ever change the obvious fact that he could never, ever, give birth. Mother nature has set aside this ability exclusively for the women.

I mention the above only in reply to the statement that there are greater differences within the genders than there are between the genders.

Well , that's enough for this post but it is not all that needs to be said.
 
That's true. Our opinions are formed by our experiences and influences.
Basic biology was for reproduction. It's not so basic anymore.
Feminism, sexism, racism, etc have a textbook definition but nothing is basic anymore. So many experiences and influences now in the high tech world. We live in this world. Some more than others.
I think we all just try to do the best we can.
 
If a woman thinks of herself as a victim and is filled with hate, then she becomes crippled.
Click to expand...

True for both men and women, Traveler. How about all the mass shooters out there? Probably applies to most of them, maybe all. And as far as I know, they have all been men.

Your statement that men who have had emotionally hurtful encounters with feminists not having a shining view of feminists is also probably true. But why limit that statement to feminists? What if someone has had emotionally hurtful encounters with, say, Italians early in their life? Does that justify a lot of big, sweeping negativity toward all Italians? (Nothing against Italians here, in general I love them. Just an example.)

Saying, "I have had some crushing experiences with feminists" is very different from saying, "Feminists are; " and then equating an entire social philosophy with the Nazi party and the KKK.
 
All I know for sure is that I'm about as confused as it is possible for one man to be.

On the one hand, the feminists posters have said that they are fully supportive of men and they love and care about us.

Yet on the other hand, after they have read the hate-filled quotes (post #91) they, the feminists on this thread, have tried desperately to ignore those statements. But most telling of all, not one single feminist has condemned any of those statements. Not one single condemnation.

It is NOT about agreeing with me. It is about the dichotomy between what the feminists on this thread are saying and what they are doing, in this case, not doing, ie condemning such vile statements by famous feminists.

It feels like I'm taking a class in "Crazy 101".
 
Traveler said:
I have heard that said numerous times but I don't agree. I think it is just something people say to prop-up a failing attempt to demonstrate that women can do anything a man can do. Even the most casual glance at men and women it is abundantly clear that in any group of 100 men and 100 women, selected at random, the men are taller, have more muscle, and heavier bones. Women on the other hand have more body fat, less muscle and much more delicate bones.

That does not make men "better than" it just makes us different. Continuing, women, as a general rule, talk much, much more than men. I do not say that is a negative, it is just a difference. Clearly, women are better at some tasks and men are better at others.

Beneath the skin the differences are even greater. Everyone who had a basic biology class knows that men have aprox 9 times the amount of testosterone than women, and women have far more estrogen. Testosterone is the primary agent responsible for sexual drive and physical aggression. This is why boys, again speaking generally, engage in 'ruff and tumble play. It is thought that estrogen is one of the main factors in why little girls are much more likely to play well together and much more quietly than boys.

Speaking biologically,perhaps the greatest difference between males and females is the 23rd chromosome. This is the master chromosome and it controls almost everything. In an age of transgenderism, people can have drastic surgery to change their outward appearance but inside the body, a transgender man who has undergone feminizing surgery, is still, and always will --- remain a man. Moreover, no amount of feminizing surgery can ever change the obvious fact that he could never, ever, give birth. Mother nature has set aside this ability exclusively for the women.

I mention the above only in reply to the statement that there are greater differences within the genders than there are between the genders.

Well , that's enough for this post but it is not all that needs to be said.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Well, after decades of experience dealing with broken souls, I stand by my statement. I was not referencing body mass, childbearing capacity, or testosterone, etc, but the universal need by most individuals to feel a sense of belonging to the whole, as opposed to feeing isolated, unwanted, invisible. Some people are natural hermits, most crave company, purpose,

acceptance, loyalty, love. PSTD and other ills, are very destructive barriers to mental and emotional well-being. This transcends gender, class, ethnicity etc. Pain, like death, is a great leveler. Turns human beings into broken shells. A quiet mind is a gift beyond price. Yes, some men become aggressive when ill, most do not. Most weep like broken children. As do most women, although one lady experiencing a hideous flashback dislocated my shoulder. Ouch!
 
Sunny said:
True for both men and women, Traveler. How about all the mass shooters out there? Probably applies to most of them, maybe all. And as far as I know, they have all been men.

Your statement that men who have had emotionally hurtful encounters with feminists not having a shining view of feminists is also probably true. But why limit that statement to feminists? What if someone has had emotionally hurtful encounters with, say, Italians early in their life? Does that justify a lot of big, sweeping negativity toward all Italians? (Nothing against Italians here, in general I love them. Just an example.)

Saying, "I have had some crushing experiences with feminists" is very different from saying, "Feminists are; " and then equating an entire social philosophy with the Nazi party and the KKK.
Click to expand...


Yes, all of that may be true. BUT when you read what world famous feminists have to say about wanting to destroy the family unit, do away with marriage and commit near genocide on men it does tend to make one a believer. AND let us not forget that not one single feminist has condemned the quotes in post #91.
 
Traveler said:
Yes, all of that may be true. BUT when you read what world famous feminists have to say about wanting to destroy the family unit, do away with marriage and commit near genocide on men it does tend to make one a believer. AND let us not forget that not one single feminist has condemned the quotes in post #91.
Click to expand...
Excuse me, I have said I disagree with many of those quotes. I just don’t reach the same conclusions as you do.
 
We are into the third wave of the feminist movement.

The vocal and radical group that appears to define this wave are the so called Gender Feminists. Although this group holds onto some of the elements of Equality Feminism, they man shame, refuse to accept the inherent differences between the two sexes and support the social re engineering of males.

While some feminists acknowledge, denounce and separate themselves from this movement, just as many do not because they believe that you can't have one without the other. They believe there is no division therefore only one label applies, feminism.

So at the end of the day you will have some that will agree on what it has become and some that will disagree what it has become.

I'll be on the side of what it has become.
 
Shalimar said:
I may not agree with these statements, but I am not willing to tar and feather a whole movement ...

Every movement, religious and secular, has its share of strident opinions ...
Click to expand...

Shalimar said:
Excuse me, I have said I disagree with many of those quotes.
Click to expand...



Pardon me , Shalimar, but you did not say you disagree. You said you MAY disagree. That is different from saying you disagree And, it is a far cry from outright condemning those hateful statements. You also said "... with many of those statements. Many ? But not all ? Which ones do you agree with ? Hmmm ?

In any event, getting you to even say that much was like pulling teeth. You sound like an apologist for those famous feminists when you said, "Every movement, religious and secular, has its share of strident opinions".

I repeat, not one single person has outright condemned all of those hateful statements. NOT ONE !

Egalitarians ? Supporters of men ? Sorry gals, I just don't buy it. All of this talk about being egalitarians is just the same old feminist party- line wrapped up in a new package with a pretty ribbon.

Bottom line ? The feminist agenda of hating men has not changed one iota. Oh, sure, men may be useful to feminists occasionally, but down deep, where it really matters, you continue to blame men for all of your problems.

Personally, I think that the loyalty of "sister-hood" takes precedence over any other consideration.
 
SifuPhil said:
Justin Trudeau, the PM of Canada, is a self-avowed feminist.

Therefore, he must hate himself since he's a male.

See the little error in your logic?
Click to expand...


There is no error in my logic, thank you very much. He is just a smart politician. Exactly the same as JFK and Bill Clinton who never missed an opportunity to lift a skirt in private even though they were married.
 
Traveler said:
Pardon me , Shalimar, but you did not say you disagree. You said you MAY disagree. That is different from saying you disagree And, it is a far cry from outright condemning those hateful statements. You also said "... with many of those statements. Many ? But not all ? Which ones do you agree with ? Hmmm ?

In any event, getting you to even say that much was like pulling teeth. You sound like an apologist for those famous feminists when you said, "Every movement, religious and secular, has its share of strident opinions".

I repeat, not one single person has outright condemned all of those hateful statements. NOT ONE !

Egalitarians ? Supporters of men ? Sorry gals, I just don't buy it. All of this talk about being egalitarians is just the same old feminist party- line wrapped up in a new package with a pretty ribbon.

Bottom line ? The feminist agenda of hating men has not changed one iota. Oh, sure, men may be useful to feminists occasionally, but down deep, where it really matters, you continue to blame men for all of your problems.

Personally, I think that the loyalty of "sister-hood" takes precedence over any other consideration.
Click to expand...


Personally, I think you expect total compliance with your perspective, anything less results in posts such as this. We are under no obligation to agree with each other, sad that there seems to be no room for respectful differences of opinion. As for my

loyalty, first of all, I am loyal to my conscience. Unlike you, I see the totality of humanity as something which I devote my life to serving. My first loyalty there will always be to the children. It is my way of paying it forward. I was spared where the rest were not. If I ever had a victim mentality, that was destroyed in the killing fields of childhood. It diminishes those I serve,

particularly the brave male survivors of the Hell Of War, when you label therapists such as myself with manhating rhetoric. These soldiers, in full dress uniform, along wlth their female colleagues, stood for me while I was comatose in the hospital. No greater honour could be paid to a civilian. Lawn Darts, j’t’adore!
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top