Who is God the Father? Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, the great “I AM”, or the man in the moon

Knight said:
I've never understood that concept. That God & Satan both have power to control what mankind does or doesn't do. How is that control decided? I understand free will is supposed to be the gift but why would a benevolent merciful God want or allow Satan to be the victor of that free will?
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A question that plagued theologians for centuries. If God is all powerful and all good but does nothing to eliminate evil that exists in the world how can God be all powerful? Or all good?

I once enrolled in one semester at a theological college and we looked at this dilemma. The biblical explanation is found in the second chapter of Genesis where mankind brings evil into the world by disobeying the Creator. I have thought this creation myth to have a serious flaw. I mean, really? Two ingenues are created and left alone with temptation? No further guidance? What was to be expected?

I must not be alone because there are many different approaches to explaining the dilemma. It is a theological area known as theodicy. Every attempt at rationalising the dilemma made my head spin. They all needed the Occam's razor treatment.

While I was agonising over this subject a thought sprang into my head as if an answer to my situation. It was a very simple one and passed Occam's test. This is the wrong question to spend so much time on. The real question is, "Who is my Neighbour?"

Of course I recognised that question. It is the question asked of Jesus by a some teachers of the law, and Jesus answers them by telling the parable of the good Samaritan.

I no longer worry about inconsistencies in different parts of the bible, or about why the world isn't a perfect paradise, or why humans can be both kind and cruel. I just try to understand my neighbour and to respond where I can to his/her suffering. I have come to understand that my neighbour doesn't have to be near by. Someone living in poverty on the other side of the world can be my neighbour which is why I have chosen to donate monthly to Medicins sans Frontiers. It is why I help out at a playgroup two mornings a week because parents and grandparents need some place to come with little children where they can find friendship and mutual support. The last thing they need is a treatise on the struggle of good and evil for the soul of mankind. Sometimes they need a shoulder to cry on but mostly they need laughter and encouragement. My contribution? I buy and prepare a lovely morning tea for the children and adults because they are my neighbours.
 

The answer is that woman was created out one of the man's ribs. So what could you expect? And then after the man egged on the woman to eat of the apple from the forbidden tree (which he knew what that was all about--don't kid yourself--blamed it on the snake) he pretended to know that each of them was naked (he knew that already--he just wanted the woman to think it was her idea) And that's how it all began--the Tree of Knowledge was all about sex--the original sin. So next time you eat an apple--think on that.

I mean seriously, if you're going to take the story of the creation literally, why not my take on it? So, where is you missing rib, sir? There are many ways to take the Bible in other ways. Just google it. Although frankly, I prefer my sexy version. :badgirl: How else to explain the population since then if God didn't want it that way? "Go out and be fruitful and multiply". That's how we have the Duggars.
 
The be fruitful and multiply scripture-was that Old Testament or new? Does it go along with the bit about not spilling ones seed on the ground? (Obviously, applies to men.). I think these are both Old Testament as is the garden of eden. IMO, it’s important to clarify if posting individuals are speaking of the Old Testament or the new.

Otherwise, we are posting about two different types of bible stories-old testament and new. Two different gods-the Old Testament God of the Jewish faith and JC, the son and God of the Christian faith. Also two different religions-the Christian faith and the Jewish faith. These things are not interchangeable. It’s confusing enough without trying to mix these together.

So for the non-believers who talk about getting along without a god or a Satan, just skating along doing their own thing. Believing in just supporting their neighbors to improve the conditions of the world; what are the organizations throughout the world that you contribute to that are similar to the religious organizations who do “good works”.

If you don’t contribute to an organization, and I don’t, what do you do improve the life of a neighbor or a complete stranger. I think I mentioned how we bought groceries for a younger mother and her child with a sign saying they need help. We have also contributed to the support of a family for a few months when a parent was unable to work. Provided money for a bus ticket for someone trying to get back home. Nothing big, but it made a difference to that individual.

I knew of a person, who when her neighbor’s water was turned off, ran a hose to their house to provide water for that family for more than two years. Another neighbor who was a bus mechanic and helped neighbors fix their cars. Shoveling someone’s walk. Easing the burden of others lives for no reason except god’s grace. I could go on and on.

How does a non-believer decide to help his fellow man without the teachings of a religion to guide him to the right decisions? Is it just from childhood lessons, friendship, the examples of others? I am really curious.
 

The thread title is "Who is God the father". I respectfully have a question. One member repeatedly posts in the forum that "There is no God" and members post their agreement with him with nothing to add. No surprise there because there are many who don't believe in a God.

That's fine with me but I'm curious, why are you "wasting" your time in this thread? Apparently you're reading the thread (not a waste). Why are you interested? Christians often see this as the Holy Spirit convicting the unbelievers to stay and read it. That's a valid reason to stay for sure! So I'm glad you're still here. I hope my difference of opinion isn't irritating you though. Is it? That's not my intention at all.

Aneeda, I always come from the New Testament because a lot changed after Jesus came. He fulfilled all of the MANY Old Testament prophesies of the coming of the Messiah (Savior of our sins). An awesome historical fact!
 
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Just plain old curiosity, Lara, to see how other people think. There is no "Holy Spirit" guiding what we read on the Internet. If there were, we would solve all computer glitches by praying.

And speaking for myself, I don't find you irritating, though your point of view is somewhat fascinating.

Aneeda, why in the world do you think that all the worthy causes, charitable organizations, etc. are functions of religion? Some of them are; many are not. The desire to help the less fortunate is a function of morality, kindness, common decency... none of which require the fairy tales of ancient religions to be acted upon. And there are humanistic religions, whose main focus is on being decent to other people and to the
planet, without requiring people to twist their minds around a lot of Biblical tales.

In other words, belief in the literal truth of the Bible (either testament, Aneeda) has absolutely nothing to do with human kindness. Yes, there are religion-based charitable organizations. And the Spanish Inquisition, puritanism, and all manner of cruelty toward one's fellow man have also been based on literal belief in the Bible. If you're going to give the Bible credit for all the good deeds in the world, you've got to also give it the blame for all the evil it has inspired.

P.S. I always understood that the Christian belief was in both Testaments. You seem to be trying to eliminate the Old Testament from Christian belief. But is this true? Do Christians reject the stories of the Old Testament and believe only in Jesus and his apostles? That is what you are saying, but what about all the Christian fundamentalists who are always quoting the Old Testament prophets and believe in the Old Testament story of Genesis? It seems to me you are picking and choosing, trying to create a starry-eyed version of a Christianity based entirely on one part of the Bible, and giving Christianity the credit for all acts of human decency. That's a very narrow point of view.
 
Sunny said:
P.S. I always understood that the Christian belief was in both Testaments. You seem to be trying to eliminate the Old Testament from Christian belief. But is this true? Do Christians reject the stories of the Old Testament and believe only in Jesus and his apostles? That is what you are saying, but what about all the Christian fundamentalists who are always quoting the Old Testament prophets and believe in the Old Testament story of Genesis? It seems to me you are picking and choosing, trying to create a starry-eyed version of a Christianity based entirely on one part of the Bible, and giving Christianity the credit for all acts of human decency. That's a very narrow point of view.
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I've learned from modern clergy that they now take everything in The Bible as allegory except the divinity of Christ. The internet has helped a lot of people see through mystical nonsense and drop superstition. The clergy realize they don't have much credibility left. Of course, this is something they don't advertise. However, I've found them to be honest about this new approach if you confront them.
 
Sunny said:
P.S. I always understood that the Christian belief was in both Testaments. You seem to be trying to eliminate the Old Testament from Christian belief. But is this true? Do Christians reject the stories of the Old Testament and believe only in Jesus and his apostles? That is what you are saying, but what about all the Christian fundamentalists who are always quoting the Old Testament prophets and believe in the Old Testament story of Genesis? It seems to me you are picking and choosing, trying to create a starry-eyed version of a Christianity based entirely on one part of the Bible, and giving Christianity the credit for all acts of human decency. That's a very narrow point of view.
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Speaking entirely for myself, and not disagreeing with the parts of your post that I have omitted, I would point out that modern bible scholarship is a bit more sophisticated than literal acceptance of every word notwithstanding the various translations that are in common use. Christians do not reject the Old Testament but it must be read in historical, social and literary context. You need to understand that some parts are myth or legend. Other parts are oral histories that have been written down after many generations of story telling. IMO the book of Job is a theological debate on the subject of human suffering and should not be read as history. The creation myths Gen 1 and 2 are not intended to be scientific texts. They are there to explain the relationship of mankind to the earth, each other and to God. Gen 2 attempts to rationalise the dual nature of humans as well as death, pain and suffering.

I am currently hosting a weekly bible study group led by our minister who is a keen biblical scholar. He is well versed in the historical and social context of the ancient world and he has helped us to see the subtle undercurrents in the words of Jesus. It is possible to read both testaments of the bible and look into the stories with different eyes. A biblical fundamentalist takes the position that every word is literally true ( the inerrant, unalterable word of God) but (so called) progressive Christians read the same book looking for understanding and relevance to modern life without needing to marry together inconsistencies and contradictions. Catholics and Protestants have always had different attitudes to the bible but since Vatican II they are much closer together. However within each church (or churches) there are huge differences in how the texts are regarded.
 
Sunny, you said you were "somewhat fascinated" when I spoke of the Holy Spirit:

The Holy Spirit's role is the believer's Helper in many ways (I'll get to what he does for unbelievers in a sec), like indwelling believers and protecting their salvation, giving them wisdom, assisting with our prayers when we don't have the right words or there is an unspoken prayer request, and he comforts us and gives us peace and joy with overflowing hope as we navigate this hostile world.

But the Bible also states this regarding unbelievers:

"The Holy Spirit also does work among unbelievers. Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to “convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8, ESV). The Spirit testifies of Christ (John 15:26), pointing people to the Lord. Currently, the Holy Spirit is also restraining sin and combatting “the secret power of lawlessness” in the world. This action keeps the rise of the Antichrist at bay (2 Thessalonians 2:6–10)."

So yes, the Holy Spirit might be convicting the unbelievers who are "somewhat fascinated" by what believers have posted in this thread but I don't know that for sure...only the Holy Spirit knows that.
 
I'm not a man that has studied the bible I'm recalling popular storys that I heard when I went to sunday school.


The recent posts by Sunny & Warrigal seem to point to religious leaders looking more closely to the storys in the bible as ways to explain what wasn't know about the origin of mankind. Questioning the storys makes sense to me. Unlike modern day documentation with the ability to provide visual proof of events, relying on what is written is open to be questioned.


The bible as a referance puts the earth & galaxy at 6000 years, science puts it at 3 &1/2 billion plus. Made in his Image without a visual other than what man has written how is it known the allued to sentient being is male? Made in his Image Neanderthals & Cro-Magnons are a fact with Neanderthals pre dating Cro-Magnons. The story that Adam & Eve are the origin doesn't explain the 4 DNA bases & possibly 8 as science uncovers more. Noah and the animals saved yet there are https://themysteriousworld.com/animals-found-only-in-madagascar/.


Attributing only good to God.
God is recorded in the Bible as having personally killed a large number of people.[note 1] While the majority of the divine assassinations certainly took place during God's time as the notoriously vengeful deity in the Old Testament, a few instances are also recorded in the (just slightly) more peaceful New Testament. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people


If there is a God that killed then why not kill Satan. That should remove the evil that is attributed to Satan.


Questioning IMO isn't wrong, not questioning is.
 
Sorry, the full title of this thread is:
[h=1]Who is God the Father? Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, the great “I AM”, or the man in the moon[/h]Atheists come under the man in the moon part. If you wanted only theistic responses, this thread probably should not have been in the general "Current News And Hot Topics" section. Maybe in the Spirituality section.? I don't think it's appropriate to have a thread with only one viewpoint, and then to tell others, with differing ideas to get bent." If this offends you, don't read it", type responses that I read. WE are all members of this forum. Again if you post threads, where you only want one side, maybe posting them in the general arena, isn't the best way.
 
]"The Holy Spirit also does work among unbelievers. Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to “convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8, ESV). The Spirit testifies of Christ (John 15:26), pointing people to the Lord. Currently, the Holy Spirit is also restraining sin and combatting “the secret power of lawlessness” in the world. This action keeps the rise of the Antichrist at bay (2 Thessalonians 2:6–10

So yes, the Holy Spirit might be convicting the unbelievers who are "somewhat fascinated" by what believers have posted in this thread but I don't know that for sure...only the Holy Spirit knows that.
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If by "convicting" you mean convincing (I've never heard the word convicting used like that), I could make an equal case for the anti-Holy Spirit convicting all those millions of people who say, "I used to be a Christian but no longer believe any of that nonsense." I've known a lot more lapsed Catholics than people who were "convicted" by the Holy Spirit while reading online discussions just because they were interested.

My interest is not a theological one, Lara. It's more a human psychology one. We are capable of convincing ourselves of just about anything apparently, if it serves our psychological needs.
 
Everyone, I have talked about the Bible mostly in relationship to bits and pieces of scripture that Lara has quoted and questions of mine she has answered. I have made it very clear, I thought, that I believe the Bible is a collection of fact based stories-a historical novel. I do not believe in the Bible word for word.

I have not tried to put my beliefs on anyone else, nor has anyone else done this. Believe, don’t believe-whatever floats your boat. Join the discussion or not. As I understand it, Lara is simply curious as to why people who agree with non-believers don’t state why they don’t believe. I think Lara is curious as to why if you think the world is flat you would waste time with people who believe who believe the world is round. There can be no meeting of the minds.

However, we all agree to observe kindergarten rules and be kind, decent people to each other in this discussion. Both believers and non-believers can believe in being civil.

Sunny, I didn’t say all charitable organizations were religious. I asked which ones weren’t or at least tried to. If the desire to help the less fortunate is based on the mortality of the people involved, and the people involved are not religious in any way, then where and how did they learn what was moral and what was not? Curious, I am.

It it is my understanding that the Old Testament is the Jewish Bible. The New Testament is Christian. That is the difference in my understanding and explains the difference between the heavy handed God who killed millions and JC. You need to address your questions to Lara or Warrigal who are knowledgeable about the Bible. I am not.

Knight, I did mention there were other races at the time of Adam and Eve, even the Bible makes this clear. Thus the discussion about the gods and not just one in particular. Although, most have settled on one in this discussion.

fuzzybear, I think the discussion is in the right place. Everyone is welcome to disagree and comment. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. Everyone is welcome to agree and comment. Everyone is welcome to read and not comment. But it is frustrating when someone agrees with someone else’s opinion instead of voicing their own opinion.

There are many sides discussed in this thread, not just one. It is very interesting and I, for one, am learning a lot. As for the discussions about Satan and the Holy Spirit, they are on their own. God is confusing enough for me. Lol.
 
I'm learning a lot too Aneeda. And you are correct that I'm just curious. I do not feel anyone should be excluded from the thread because they're atheist. I never said that. I only asked why someone feels compelled to say there is no God in a thread that asks "Who is God". It does't ask "Is There a God". I'm just curious why non-believers don't start their own thread and name it "Is There a God", not "Who is God" since that's what they want to talk about. Or maybe they don't. They surely don't want to add anything about who God is.

Maybe they like to argue? Seriously. I don't know. But the rest of the posters are not arguing at all. We don't agree on everything but we're all moving in the same direction in finding clarity on the who what when why where of God.

The thread title seems to me to assume there is a God and beckons a discussion on who he is exactly. Like what you think God's Bio is, so to speak. Although his birth and death will be a challenge since he always was and always will be. Infinity. No beginning and no end.

But that's just my opinion. Apparently others think the thread is about who God isn't.

Also, I don't dismiss the Old Testament. I just enjoy talking about the New Testament because of the messages of new life, forgiveness, grace, hope, eternal life, and how we should live our lives in the present, reaching out, helping one another, letting our light shine, love, peace, patience kindness, self control, gratefulness, letting go of our burdens, and letting God. I like dwelling in the positive. It makes me happy and I believe what Jesus said when he arrived in the New Testament.
 
God is a tool for fear. Through vague and callous rule books, we are kept confused and paranoid. God prevents us form understanding our species, because the rule books define our species. People use this power for control and manipulation through fear and guilt. The scam of religion is even used for murder. Religion is a useful tool for conquers.
 
[FONT=&quot]Also, I don't dismiss the Old Testament. I just enjoy talking about the New Testament because of the messages of new life, forgiveness, grace, hope, eternal life, and how we should live our lives in the present, reaching out, helping one another, letting our light shine, love, peace, patience kindness, self control, gratefulness, letting go of our burdens, and letting God. I like dwelling in the positive. It makes me happy.[/FONT]
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Here's my thought on the Old testament...

The Old testament was for those under the law...the new testament is just what it says, a "New" testament. Not just a book of more chapters.

Jesus nailed the law to the cross...so that we can have eternal life.
 
Lara, I also like the Old Testament stories except for the so and so be got so and so, lol. I think non-believers simply don’t know the difference between the two Testaments, and the two gods, and often speak from a point of no knowledge. I think if you are going to be a non-believer you should have a basic knowledge of what it is you don’t believe in.

Generalizations are not helpful. It is true some people just like to argue, but how can you argue from a point of ignorance? It’s beyond my understanding. You are right, the discussion does drift around. It was meant to be a discussion about the gods, and who they are, how they came about. After all some people worship money, so money is their god.

But all in all, I thank everyone who joins in. It’s very interesting, and helps me make it through the day. As my life is very complicated right now and it’s one of those times where there is only one set of footprints in the sand.
 
Seeker said:
Here's my thought on the Old testament...

The Old testament was for those under the law...the new testament is just what it says, a "New" testament. Not just a book of more chapters.

Jesus nailed the law to the cross...so that we can have eternal life.
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Exactly Seeker :)

Nihil said:
God prevents us from understanding
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God is not the author of confusion. In fact, there are no contradictions in the Bible as some think. Sometimes what is said is taken out of context making it look like a contradiction. But with that said, it is true that all the answers are not in the Bible. God did that on purpose because he wants us to study his Word, the Bible, to show ourselves approved of God.

Aneeda, When you say "2 Gods", I assume you mean God the Father and God the Son. Actually God the Father is just as much a part of the New Testament as the Old Testament. The thing that changed in the New Testament is the coming of Jesus (God in the likeness of Man) to save humanity from their sins.

Sunny, When I said "convicted", I did not mean "convincing". The Holy Spirit does not "cause" nor "persuade" anyone to believe. But he does cause a conviction in some unbelievers to seek the truth on their own if he feels it's worth the effort (in my words lol). God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all want the same thing...for man to make his own choice to believe or not to believe.

 
'No contradictions in the Bible'.... wow. Entire volumes, not to mention the Talmud, have been filled with analyses and discussions of the hundreds of contradictions.

Aneeda, my Bible is called the Holy Bible, and it's the New International Version. (Lara would say the Holy Spirit made me get it down off the shelf.) It is both the Old and the New Testament. It is not the Jewish or the Christian Bible, it's just the Bible. (Although my understanding is that the Jewish religion generally stops at the end of the book of Malachi, which is the end of the Old Testament. The Christian faiths use both testaments.)

What I like about it is that it's written in modern English without all the thee's, thou's, unto's, etc. It's a lot better and easier to read than the very archiac old version. But it's still just as full of contradictions, nonsense, and whoppers. And some of the stories in the Old Testament are wonderful. My favorite is the book of Joseph, which is a marvelously human story, with no supernatural beings at all.

The thing is, to me it's just a book, full of ancient philosophy.

To get back to your original note, Aneeda, what would you define as a miracle?
 
Religion is a useful tool for conquers.
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It can be if that is your interpretation of religion…I feel Christianity is more than a religion.


It‘s a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
 
I agree Seeker.

Sunny, you have an excellent Bible. I stand by my word, there are no contradictions in the Bible. Let's try something. You pick out a contradiction in the New Testament (because I enjoy discussing the NT. I have discussed the OT elsewhere lately and I need a break from it) and I will explain why it's not a contradiction. The OT doesn't have any contradictions either.

But right now I'm going to bed :eek:fftobed: Goodnight. I'll check back when I wake up.


 
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Sunny said:
'No contradictions in the Bible'.... wow. Entire volumes, not to mention the Talmud, have been filled with analyses and discussions of the hundreds of contradictions.

Aneeda, my Bible is called the Holy Bible, and it's the New International Version. (Lara would say the Holy Spirit made me get it down off the shelf.) It is both the Old and the New Testament. It is not the Jewish or the Christian Bible, it's just the Bible. (Although my understanding is that the Jewish religion generally stops at the end of the book of Malachi, which is the end of the Old Testament. The Christian faiths use both testaments.)

What I like about it is that it's written in modern English without all the thee's, thou's, unto's, etc. It's a lot better and easier to read than the very archiac old version. But it's still just as full of contradictions, nonsense, and whoppers. And some of the stories in the Old Testament are wonderful. My favorite is the book of Joseph, which is a marvelously human story, with no supernatural beings at all.

The thing is, to me it's just a book, full of ancient philosophy.
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No arguments with the main thrust of your arguments Sunny but I've never heard of the Book of Joseph. It that the correct name?
 
Sunny said:
'No contradictions in the Bible'.... wow. Entire volumes, not to mention the Talmud, have been filled with analyses and discussions of the hundreds of contradictions.

Aneeda, my Bible is called the Holy Bible, and it's the New International Version. (Lara would say the Holy Spirit made me get it down off the shelf.) It is both the Old and the New Testament. It is not the Jewish or the Christian Bible, it's just the Bible. (Although my understanding is that the Jewish religion generally stops at the end of the book of Malachi, which is the end of the Old Testament. The Christian faiths use both testaments.)

What I like about it is that it's written in modern English without all the thee's, thou's, unto's, etc. It's a lot better and easier to read than the very archiac old version. But it's still just as full of contradictions, nonsense, and whoppers. And some of the stories in the Old Testament are wonderful. My favorite is the book of Joseph, which is a marvelously human story, with no supernatural beings at all.

The thing is, to me it's just a book, full of ancient philosophy.
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No arguments with the main thrust of your arguments Sunny but I've never heard of the Book of Joseph. It that the correct name?
Do you mean the story of Joseph in Genesis?
 
There is much to learn from the story of Joseph but one thing is right on topic for this thread!...Who is God. It gives us a clear example of why God allows bad things to happen to good people.

Joseph’s story presents amazing insight into how God works to overcome evil and bring about His perfect plan. After all of Joseph's ordeals, he was able to see God’s hand at work. As he addressed his brother's attempts to kill him and sell him out of jealousy, Joseph spoke of their sin this way: “Do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you. . . . It was not you who sent me here, but God” (Genesis 45:5,8). Later, Joseph again reassured his brothers, offering forgiveness and saying, “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good” (Genesis 50:20). Man’s or satan's most wicked deeds can never change the perfect plan of God.

You can see in this story how many people were taught about forgiveness, about who God is, how he works, and how he used Joseph's trials and tribulations to save lives.
 
My religious philosophy is "to each his own". I was born and raised in an Italian Catholic family. From my experiences Italian Catholicism and Catholicism in general is a fear based practice. Catholicism, like other dieties, teaches it's followers to fear Almighty God and if you don't do as God wants, you will burn in hell for all eternity. Catholicism uses religion as a manipulation tool to "do as I say", but most often "not as I do". I have seen both the good and the bad sides of religion. I have witnessed people do good deeds in the name of God and I have seen people do evil things in the name of God.

I was an Altar Boy for 3 years. I went to Sunday School as a kid and got my knuckles smacked with rulers by the Nuns, some of the time I deserved it, other times I did not. I made all of my required sacraments. All the while, I never liked it or truly believed in it. For me there were just too many far fetched stories that are the basis for all religion. When I made my Confirmation in the 7th grade, my parents told me that it was up to me from this point forward if I wanted to continue with religion in my life. It took me all of 2 seconds to declare "I'm out"! I simply do not have the want or the faith required to follow down this path. I have never looked back and have never given a second thought as to whether I should go back, it's simply not for me.

My personal take on religion is that it was invented by man to be used as a manipulation tool on other men and to gain riches. That being said, I don't look down my nose at those who do believe. Religion does a lot of good in this world where there is so much evil, there are certainly much worse things a person could believe in. I have made my personal choice as a non-believer and everyone else is free to make theirs.
 

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