Cenegenics: Scam or Legitimate?

[Diwundrin]

Umm, I promised myself to stay out of this subject and I will.

This post is purely to do with the writing style of the 'various' (?) new posters who pop in with updates on the program.

Do you people realise that you 'all' write in exactly the same style? That is extraordinary!

Perhaps research may reveal that quirk as a Testosterone enhancement side effect. It seems to over-ride the natural propensity to split a post into paragraphs. You may want to look at that. There may be a supplement available to overcome the problem.

 

[Katybug]

Umm, I promised myself to stay out of this subject and I will.

This post is purely to do with the writing style of the 'various' (?) new posters who pop in with updates on the program.

Do you people realise that you 'all' write in exactly the same style? That is extraordinary!

Perhaps research may reveal that quirk as a Testosterone enhancement side effect. It seems to over-ride the natural propensity to split a post into paragraphs. You may want to look at that. There may be a supplement available to overcome the problem.

I read one line of it, Di, and wish I could block these damned trolls! I get all posts in my e-mail and don't know what it is 'til I click.....what a pain in the arse they are!!!!! AS IF, any one of us will not realize exactly what you said in your post...same old crap!

 

[SifuPhil]

... In September I changed to a plant based diet with seafood one day a week ... That is the advantage of a plant based diet. I can eat all I want and not gain weight ...

Um, unless my nutrition knowledge is faulty it's pretty much a scientific fact that if you take in more calories than you put out you're going to gain weight. The ingestion of ANY food to excess is going to lead to problems, so I'm assuming that it was just an over-enthusiastic claim.

 

[bufflo]

Resident Nutcase, I didn't say I ate to excess. I said that I could eat all I wanted. You are right. Calories in must match calories out or weight gain or weight loss will take place. I find that I am satisfied at fewer calories on a plant based diet. I'm not saying I think I heard this or read this in a diet book. I'm saying for me I can eat all I WANT on a plant based diet.

 

[Casper]

Umm, I promised myself to stay out of this subject and I will.

This post is purely to do with the writing style of the 'various' (?) new posters who pop in with updates on the program.

Do you people realise that you 'all' write in exactly the same style? That is extraordinary!

Perhaps research may reveal that quirk as a Testosterone enhancement side effect. It seems to over-ride the natural propensity to split a post into paragraphs. You may want to look at that. There may be a supplement available to overcome the problem.

Our resident spy, Di, has picked up on something I didn't notice until it was pointed out.....
:magnify:

 

[SifuPhil]

Resident Nutcase, I didn't say I ate to excess. I said that I could eat all I wanted. You are right. Calories in must match calories out or weight gain or weight loss will take place. I find that I am satisfied at fewer calories on a plant based diet. I'm not saying I think I heard this or read this in a diet book. I'm saying for me I can eat all I WANT on a plant based diet.

Okay, as long as your wants don't exceed your needs.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not against a healthy nutrition plan. I just know that people tend to stereotype vegetarians as skinny and malnourished, while we both know that isn't true for all. But from my experiences it's a bit more difficult to achieve balance with a vegetarian diet in today's world, with its emphasis on meat and junk food. It's a blessing that you have the time and the knowledge to create a healthy diet for yourself.

BUT ... as with Newly Old's regimen I am still not sure about the role testosterone supplementation takes in achieving health. I understand the diet, I understand the exercise - the T would I think just give you a boost equivalent to drinking a case of Red Bulls. I can see living the rest of your life eating properly and dieting - I can not see taking injections for that same amount of time.

 

[Newly Old]

Buffl0- I wish my internist was able to prescribe and monitor my testosterone replacement. It would save me a lot of money. He is an excellent internist, but the monitoring of testosterone replacement involves a lot more than checking total and free testosterone levels. There are other hormones that can change due to the testosterone, even though it is just bringing things into the normal range. I considered seeing an endocrinologist, but now we are talking about big bucks again.

I have a friend whose doctor manages his testosterone, but he takes no insurance and has a concierge practice. The initial examination is similar in cost to the Cenegenics evaluation, but does not include as wide a scope of testing as Cenegenics. Then there are the multitude of "fringe" doctors, in my opinion, who can run up the costs even higher and "diagnose" and treat a multitude of "hidden problems" that are, in my opinion, less than scientifically sound.

I have the disadvantage of being a physician, so I know what is required for me to be safely treated and monitored. At the moment, my only option is my Cenegenics doctor. Perhaps I will eventually find a doctor like yours, and save myself a lot of money.

Those of us who are on hormone replacement have similar successes. We all seem to say, "I feel better than I have since I was in my mid 30's." It makes us sound like fanatics or paid representatives of the testosterone industry!

Newly Old.

 

[SifuPhil]

Those of us who are on hormone replacement have similar successes. We all seem to say, "I feel better than I have since I was in my mid 30's." It makes us sound like fanatics or paid representatives of the testosterone industry!

Newly Old.

... or it might just be seen by the rest of the population as being yet another representation of good health being available only to the highest bidders ...

Any explanations as to WHY T replacement needs to be so expensive? Because it's relatively new? Would you say that the prices charged are indicative of an equally high wholesale price?

Somehow I doubt that.

 

[Diwundrin]

We all seem to say, "I feel better than I have since I was in my mid 30's." It makes us sound like fanatics or paid representatives of the testosterone industry!

 

[Katybug]

Oh geez, SifuPhil, I'm cracking up here at the video you posted!! I DO have a shakeweight, and don't see that it's done a lot of good so far, but haven't used it as much as I intended to, either. We'll see......

As far as Cenegenics, does anyone know if that's what Suzanne Somers advocates?? She's into Bioidentical Hormones, and apparently has noticed a lot of health benefits from them...and she certainly looks good for her age.

Of course, she exercises regularly and has what she feels is a healthy diet, also.

Suzanne does look fabulous, but that gal has had A LOT of work done -- all over. She would have us believe it's all natural, not buying it! I know several people who are obsessive about what they eat and exercising and have been for as long as I've known them. They still look their age in the face, still have wrinkles, so Botox & surgery is her secret. You can't wipe away wrinkles and look 20 yrs younger simply by exercising & eating healthy, but I would kill to look like her -- surgery or not!

 

[SifuPhil]

Suzanne Sommers uses ForeverHealth, which uses a network of associated physicians. They may or may not be affiliated with Cenegenics, I'm not sure, because I'm not giving ForeverHealth my email to find out.

She's also their spokesperson and has written a book on hormone replacement.

 

[Newly Old]

... or it might just be seen by the rest of the population as being yet another representation of good health being available only to the highest bidders ...

Any explanations as to WHY T replacement needs to be so expensive? Because it's relatively new? Would you say that the prices charged are indicative of an equally high wholesale price?

Somehow I doubt that.

Testosterone is not expensive. It comes out to around $20 per dose, if someone were to take the long acting shot given every 3 weeks. It is a thick oil that is usually given in the buttocks. Compounding pharmacies can custom make a variation that is easier to give- lateral thigh with a tiny needle once a week. That avoids the peaks and valleys that create annoying side effects. That is where the price can really go up, and it is not generally available to the general physician.

Insurance plans do not consider "age management" a medical treatment because they say aging is not a disease. Doctors who "accept" insurance are in fact under contract with the insurance companies to follow their rules and accept their fees. They cannot just decide to give patients treatment for "age management" and let the patients pay out of pocket. So, now you have the doctors who do not accept insurance as the ones who can do age management. The plot thickens.

Doctors who choose not to accept insurance become "concierge" physicians. They limit the size of their practice so that everybody gets close personalized care. But, for this service, they charge a lot. It can be $5000 to have the initial comprehensive health evaluation, which includes far more than would be done by a standard doctor who is limited by what insurance allows to be tested.

The "healthcare system" considers all doctors to be equivalent. If you need knee surgery, the orthopedists on the plan are all anyone needs. They will not cover for a patient to see the top arthroscopic knee expert who treats world class athletes, even though I would argue that they have much better skills and experience. Many plans will not cover Sloan Kettering for cancer care.

So, according to the system, everybody gets as good care. Concierge medicine is paying a lot for convenience and "service," but not medical care. By the way, I can do a blood count on a young child in my office from a couple of drops by a painless fingerstick. Many plans will not cover this. The parent takes their child to the lab where blood is drawn from an arm vein of the petrified screaming toddler often requiring several attempts to get the blood . Is this healthcare making a patient feel better??? Or is it having a well child endure unnecessary torture?

Back to concierge medicine. Many top doctors have tried practicing without taking insurance, only to find that their were too few who could or wanted to pay our of pocket. But, if a doctor is interested in practicing age management, a company like Cenegenics can provide the training (they charge a lot for their courses), have the infrastructure, labs and pharmacies that can provide everything a patient needs. But they are set up to provide "total" age management services, not just testosterone shots. I wanted to do "everything" that is scientifically proven and "reasonable" to optimize the benefits, so Cenegenics was right for me.

Form a cynical view, one might look at it differently. If you can only have a small number of clients, do you want to sell a basic product or require that they buy the comprehensive program. It is justifiable, in my opinion, because I think it does not make sense to just take testosterone. It has a lot of good effects, but it does not do nearly enough without the nutrition, exercise, supplements, monitoring, etc.

Try this. Go to a health club and ask to join for the use of the treadmill only. Tell them that is all you need to improve your cardiovascular so you do not want to pay for or use the rest. To me, that is the same as asking a doctor to just prescribe testosterone.

Remember, we are now talking about optimizing your life, which you are not entitled to under the healthcare system.

Newly Old

 

[SifuPhil]

Remember, we are now talking about optimizing your life, which you are not entitled to under the healthcare system.

Newly Old

I appreciate the well-regarded response and I'm going to address each of your points eventually, but one thing that really struck me was this last line.

"Optimizing"? I suppose from your viewpoint it would be. I still see it as a form of life extension. It might also be optimizing it, but later in the game, after I've already lived half or three-quarters of my life.

Could I enroll my fictional 10-year-old in the program? They could monitor all his levels throughout his life, always assuring him that he was at the peak of his powers every step of the way.

 

[bufflo]

I take the injection every three weeks. Medicare covers the T injections and my cost is $40 for about a 4 month supply. Testosterone replacement therapy is not like Red Bull in effect. I don't feel a "rush", or "boost" that subsides the next few hours. The testosterone that I was prescribed is time released over the three week. The effect is subtle and like Newly Old said a common report is, "I just feel better". Please don't think that I'm trying to talk anyone into getting hormone replacement therapy. That is a personal decision between patient and his doctor. I'm simply happy to share my experience. Like I said earlier, I've been on HRT for three years. So, I guess I like it for myself.

 

[SifuPhil]

I'm glad it's working for you Bufflo, I really am, and I thank you for sharing.

 

[Newly Old]

I appreciate the well-regarded response and I'm going to address each of your points eventually, but one thing that really struck me was this last line.

"Optimizing"? I suppose from your viewpoint it would be. I still see it as a form of life extension. It might also be optimizing it, but later in the game, after I've already lived half or three-quarters of my life.

Could I enroll my fictional 10-year-old in the program? They could monitor all his levels throughout his life, always assuring him that he was at the peak of his powers every step of the way.

This is my interpretation of the concept of "Optimization." Some doctors believe that if someone has a testosterone at the low end of the normal range, it should be considered normal. Others would say that if a person's testosterone in lower than 90% of males his age, and if he has symptoms of low testosterone, then he is not at what is normal for him. Giving him testosterone to raise his to the middle of the normal range is correct if it gets rid of his symptoms of low testosterone. His testosterone is being brought to where it is thought to be optimal for him. Was he treated for low testosterone? No. By definition, his was not low. But for HIS body function, it was. So his testosterone was "optimized."

"Normal" ranges are arbitrary definitions based on statistics. If someone's testosterone level is lower than 90% of males his age and he is symptomatic of low testosterone, I don't think it is correct to say his testosterone level is normal. But by definition it is. But for HIM, it is too low. Why not raise it if it makes his symptoms go away?

That is how I interpret hormone optimization. It's bringing the hormone levels to the optimum physiologic level for that person.

By the way, if you enrolled your 10 year old, the blood tests would all be normal (hopefully) so there would be no hormone treatments. Supplements would be based on risk factors or known nutritional deficiencies. A dietician would give a diet based on nutritional needs for the age, and on a review of the types of food the child likes and dislikes. It would be organic, avoid all processed foods, restrict foods that are potentially carcinogenic, have complex carbohydrates only, and include 3 meals and 2 snacks. An exercise routine would be custom designed after testing for strength, flexibility, fitness level, and preferred types of exercise.

So, yes, your 10 year old could theoretically be enrolled, but would waste money on extensive blood testing for issues that are common to the aging population, only. The bone density for osteoporosis would be a waste, as would the testing for plaque in the coronary arteries. The extensive cardio-pulmonary function testing apparatus would not fit that size a child. And that is the part of Cenegenics which is hard to get elsewhere.

One last thing. (see next post)

 

[Diwundrin]

..

 

[Newly Old]

I appreciate the well-regarded response and I'm going to address each of your points eventually, but one thing that really struck me was this last line.

"Optimizing"? I suppose from your viewpoint it would be. I still see it as a form of life extension. It might also be optimizing it, but later in the game, after I've already lived half or three-quarters of my life.

Could I enroll my fictional 10-year-old in the program? They could monitor all his levels throughout his life, always assuring him that he was at the peak of his powers every step of the way.

I have been unclear in my explanations. I do not see optimization as life extension. I have not heard anyone at Cenegenics look at it as life extension. I see it as making my body function as well as possible TODAY. I am optimizing how my body is TODAY. I will be constantly monitored and have treatments adjusted as I age so that I am optimized at those times also. I do not expect any additional days. It will be great to have all my days be at a much higher level, even if no more are added. I will be happy to surrender a few, if they are the poor quality days that my relatives had in their final years.

This is not an intellectual argument for me. It is reality because it is working for me. I am living and functioning as if I were more than 20 years younger.

Newly old.

 

[SifuPhil]

This is not an intellectual argument for me. It is reality because it is working for me. I am living and functioning as if I were more than 20 years younger.

Newly old.

And yet you are not.

Does that not bother you, on some level? Do you not feel that the piper must be paid in some way, some day?

I suppose this is the crux of our differing viewpoints; that you accept that you can delay the signs of aging, and I do not. Oh, sure, you can gain some extra energy, more than the "normal" individual, and that's a good thing, I agree.

But I feel that if I were participating in this program I would question what price I would be paying when the injections no longer have an effect on me, or an injurious one; I would question what would happen when I could no longer do the exercises due to physical limitations, and I would question if, when the natural, universal laws are enacted upon my body and mind, I would experience a sharper, steeper, harsher fall into my actual chronological age.

I see aging - all of life, in fact - as a timeline that is defined and relies upon certain natural "markers" placed along the way. Those markers tell us that we're on the proper path of that timeline. Perhaps it's because this specific implementation of optimization is relatively new, but I see it as being equivalent to mischievous vandals going out at night, pulling those markers and re-setting them much farther apart.

They haven't changed the actual end of the road - they've just conned the travelers into thinking that they have many more miles to go until the end. Those who have already traveled the road arrived at their destination with a certain equanimity of spirit - they knew what was coming, it was no surprise to them and they were able to handle it much more efficiently than those who followed the misplaced markers expecting the road to go on much longer, only to find an abrupt "End of Road" sign.

I'm heartened that you're satisfied with your results so far. I can only say that even if I were able and willing to invest in such a program, I would still have serious reservations about what I perceive as tampering with nature. Call me uninformed, call me a Luddite, but that's just the way I feel.

 

[Newly Old]

You bring up good points. But, I still look to the medical model.

If someone develops an under active thyroid, we put them on thyroid. Otherwise, their body functions deteriorate. Why not the same for testosterone?

If the someone's testosterone level is abnormally low, shouldn't that be treated?

On a similar note, do you people should take ******? Most people with erectile dysfunction are normal men who are experiencing one of the normal aging changes. Is that inappropriate?

People often become lactose intolerant because their stomachs no longer secret enough lactase enzyme. Should we give them replacement lactase (Lact-aid).

If a women has osteoporosis due to aging, should we leave it or try to improve her bone mineralization so that her bones are less fragile. Falls are a major cause of disability in the elderly.

If a person's heart starts to fail due to aging, should we put them on Digoxin, or say it is a normal part of aging so they need to curtail physical activity?

If a person's vision deteriorates, is it wrong to do Lasix? Remove cataracts due to aging if it is only to improve vision, not to correct blindness?

The list goes on. Many body parts lose structure or function as part of the normal aging process. We treat them to improve life. Why not replace testosterone if it's deficiency is causing symptoms? Does it matter if it is due to aging, injury to the testes or removal due to cancer? The result is the same.

Remember, I do not feel better because testosterone is a mood enhancer. I feel better because I have lost muscle wasting and gained strength. I have lost fatigue and now have the energy to exercise. Exercise is now better because testosterone allow for my muscles to respond well to the exercise so I see and feel the results. My central fat is much less, so my knees do not hurt after a lot of walking. Without the big gut, I found myself walking more upright. I no longer have an aching back at the end of the day. My restored libido is a welcome thing, even though I consider it just going along for the ride.

In other words, I feel better because the testosterone replacement is reversing some of the physical problems caused by low testosterone. Or should I let the deterioration continue? If my heart were starting to fail due to aging, should I be given treatment that can restore cardiac function? Or should I accept that I am old and unable to climb stairs, and need to sit up at night to breathe because heart failure causes fluid to build up in the lungs during sleep every night.

Cenegenics is not about extending life. It is to make lit better by preserving and restoring function, including hormones IF the person is proven to be deficient. Again, I ask what is wrong with correcting a hormone deficiency? Might there be some "price" down the line? Maybe. But there is a DEFINITE price to pay if low testosterone is left untreated. And that price starts now, and will increase year by year.

 

[Newly Old]

The following are some of the biologic effects of correcting low testosterone:

increase bone mineral density
increase muscle strength
increase lean mass
decrease fat mass
decrease waist circumference
increase exercise capacity
decrease waist/hip ratio
increase sexual interest, desire, erection, sexual activity/ejaculations, satisfaction with sex life.

Abdominal obesity is major risk for hypertension, dyslipidemia, type 2 diabetes which all increase risk of coronary heart disease.

These are some of the established effects (from Eur J Endocrinoogy 165: 675-678 (2011)

But, I am only in favor of giving testosterone to those with proven deficiency. That means confirmed low testosterone by blood tests PLUS symptoms of low testosterone.

I would add that the symptoms must resolve on treatment or it does not fit the diagnosis of low testosterone. This is pretty much what the Endocrine Society's guidelines say.

Newly Old

 

[bufflo]

See below for my personal experience. I should add that I am now off of statins and beta blockers too. I do not take any supplements other than krill oil.

The following are some of the biologic effects of correcting low testosterone:

increase bone mineral density not measured
increase muscle strength yes
increase lean mass yes, based on pinch caliper measurements
decrease fat mass same as above
decrease waist circumference 44 inch to 36 inch
increase exercise capacity I now exercise everyday
decrease waist/hip ratio higher
increase sexual interest, desire, erection, sexual activity/ejaculations, satisfaction with sex life. much better - ask around.

Abdominal obesity is major risk for hypertension, dyslipidemia, type 2 diabetes which all increase risk of coronary heart disease.

These are some of the established effects (from Eur J Endocrinoogy 165: 675-678 (2011)

But, I am only in favor of giving testosterone to those with proven deficiency. That means confirmed low testosterone by blood tests PLUS symptoms of low testosterone.

I would add that the symptoms must resolve on treatment or it does not fit the diagnosis of low testosterone. This is pretty much what the Endocrine Society's guidelines say.

Newly Old

 

[rt3]

insight

See below for my personal experience. I should add that I am now off of statins and beta blockers too. I do not take any supplements other than krill oil.

not answering the question on Cenegenics specifically, nor have I followed the train of thought through your posts. Statements made are from the position of a compounding pharmacist that has worked for Cene and approx. 900 other MDs over a period of 10 years specific to hormone replacement, nutrition, and supplements. I have nothing to sell, have no personal stake, simply doing this to help clean up some of the outdated, misinformation and look into some of more complicated areas of this topic. Having used hormone replacement therapy etc, for quite awhile, and at the age of 68 I feel the need to help some of us older folk kick the kaka out of some of the stupid stuff I see the young folk doing. posting now to see if this web site works.

 

[rt3]

good the post works- now for a few facts. this may have been already posted, but I'm not going to review, too old/no time

The participation by MD's in the Cenegenics franchise allows the MD to use Cenes call in center, to order the rx and "packages" without the MD needing a staff for this purpose. MD's pay into the franchise get to use their resources, win/win for both sides--on the business side.

lab results really don't tell you anything about the level of hormones you need. a normal range is meaningless. its a statistical average used by the lab company.
as an example the TSH range has recently been suggested to be reduced to around 3 as the 5 level rejected to many people in race/ethnic groups known to be lower.

test. is converted to estrogen E2 in men, estrogen has significant cardio protective properties
recent heart attacks/problems in the news from test. given to men are more than likely due to surges in estrogen breaking away the plaques. but the FDA decision to investigate will no doubt stir the pot.

everyone over 30 has low thyroid- t4 is not the same as t3 t4 is inactive

the start of the entire sequence is in the electron transport system, and adrenal stress.

 

[That Guy]